a hand from my site

[TStoneMBD]

YES YES I FORGOT WHAT IM HOLDING. :P

AsJc in a 2/3 blind structure

UTG+1 is completely unknown. CO is 51/15/1.3 over 279 hands.

UTG+1 open limps, CO raises, I call in the SB, UTG+1 calls.

Ks 8s 6c

check to CO, CO bets I call, UTG+1 folds.

Ks 8s 6c 5d

I check, CO bets, I fold.


the poster from my forums thinks the flop call is -ev. i like it because i have the backdoor spade draw and villain might check a weaker ace on the turn yes no?

[PTjvs]

You forgot to put your hand in your post.

jvs

[lautzutao]

I'm way out of my league here, but against this loose a player this doesn't seem like a bad call at all. You've more than likely got overs and the backdoor draw yes?(assuming a rather large range of possible raising hands)

Fold preflop. Utg raiser, 3balled by someone with (apparently) decent 3balling standards. Bad times for AJ.

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. Utg raiser, 3balled by someone with (apparently) decent 3balling standards. Bad times for AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 open limps, CO raises, I call in the SB, UTG+1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]


As for the hand, I think a peel here is borderline at best. I know it'd probably get me in trouble.

[Fianchetto]

He's not calling a 3-bet, he's calling a single raise preflop, which I think is ok, not great, but ok in a shorthanded situation against aggressive players. You could even consider 3-betting it.

It's the flop call that I think is pretty thin.

Oops misread it. In that case, you should definitely 3bet preflop here. Also, by 3betting the hand is much easier to play.

[kidcolin]

Couple of points:

1. I hear the '3-bet, it'll be easier to play' argument a decent amount. Whether it makes it easier to play is totally irrelevant. What matters is if it's +EV and moreso than your other options. Your goal is to make the best play, not what will make the hand easiest.

2. If you're going to use it anyway, back it up. How does 3-betting here make the hand easier to play, epsecially since we're risking a cap? You're setting yourself up to be OOP with a rather marginal 3-bet hand in a big, 3 handed pot. That's not easier in my book. I don't think calling, evaluating the flop, and going for a check-raise is a bad plan at all.

[aslowjoe]

I would play it the same way.

Co pfr range is probably around 66 Axs any 2 paint cards. Not super aggressive so he will auto bet the flop but might check the turn, he is probably a weak value bettor and will pay you off if you suck out. I think it is close but I dont mind the call.

I wouldn't advocate 3betting pre flop being out of postion I think even if your marginaly ahead postion negates that fact. Also I think the there is very little chance of you getting HU with the intial raiser.

[wackjob]

I 3-bet PF. The way you played it, I would probably fold the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
YES YES I FORGOT WHAT IM HOLDING. :P

AsJc in a 2/3 blind structure

UTG+1 is completely unknown. CO is 51/15/1.3 over 279 hands.

UTG+1 open limps, CO raises, I call in the SB, UTG+1 calls.

Ks 8s 6c

check to CO, CO bets I call, UTG+1 folds.

Ks 8s 6c 5d

I check, CO bets, I fold.


the poster from my forums thinks the flop call is -ev. i like it because i have the backdoor spade draw and villain might check a weaker ace on the turn yes no?

[/ QUOTE ]

TStoneMBD,

isn't a flop peel similar to Nate Tha' Great's 77 hand (because you are making the flop call with some expectation of the turn action proceeding in your favor)? in that thread, he states that he would have to have some indication that his opponent would have to check behind the turn a reasonable portion of the time (presumably with a worse hand because he is scared of getting checkraised or investing bets when behind) to make the flop call +EV. this example has more permutations, because the bettor could have a lot of hands you are ahead of (worse aces, broadway cards, etc come to mind) but won't this type opponent blindly bet the turn more often, swinging this marginal call to one where you'll have to fold the turn too often?

I am curious because I know from being in opponent's shoes many times that I don't need to have the best hand at all to bet here, that is the power of position I suppose

[TStoneMBD]

i do think that its necessary that villain checks behind on the turn a portion of the time to make the flop call correct. i really have no idea how often he bets the turn but i would imagine that there are some players who check a fair amount of time.

looking back on these 2 posts i made i think getting 8:1 on this flop is way more than enough to proceed because a jack should be good as well as an ace and the fact villain checks behind on the turn. in the other thread i think calling the flop was a mistake.

tstone,

maybe I'm asking the obvious, but what if you held red AJo? does it become closer/fold-worthy?

[TStoneMBD]

yah i would fold without a spade but its still somewhat close.