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View Full Version : 32s on the button w/ strange post-flop action

poboys
10-21-2005, 12:13 PM
The table has a nice mix of 15/5's (none in this hand) and LPs . I realize the limp on the button is pretty loose, but these guys were so LP I thought it was worth it. Here's the stats on the players that matter for this hand:

BB is 10/7/1 after 100 hands,
UTG is 90/0/0.75 after 100 hands,
UTG+1 is 26/10/3 after 50 hands,
UTG+2 is 70/22/0.9 after 80 hands,

UTG and UTG+2 rarely showed aggression past the flop but would check-call all day.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

<font color="green">UTG+2's call/3-bet really confused me here. Made me think he either had a set or a draw.</font>

Turn: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero ...

<font color="green"> BBs lead (given the aggression post-flop) confused me. Plan for turn and river? </font>
krimson
10-21-2005, 12:19 PM
What about JT?

I put in another raise on the turn. Consider folding later on if things get out of hand.
brettbrettr
10-21-2005, 12:24 PM
I would not raise this flop closing the action. That is all.
poboys
10-21-2005, 12:27 PM
I assume your talking about UTG+2 -- JT makes sense for him. But what about BB? Or am I overthinking this one?
poboys
10-21-2005, 12:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would not raise this flop closing the action. That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you don't raise post-flop, how do you handle the turn given the 8/images/graemlins/club.gif?
brettbrettr
10-21-2005, 12:33 PM
Oh, I'd raise that.
krimson
10-21-2005, 12:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I assume your talking about UTG+2 -- JT makes sense for him. But what about BB? Or am I overthinking this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's definitely a dangerous board for us, so your not overthinking it. But, we hit the hand we are drawing to and we have 3 opponents stuck, probably to showdown. I think we need to make one last raise here and then slowdown (consider folding?) to any further aggression.
newhizzle
10-21-2005, 03:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would not raise this flop closing the action. That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

before the action after you raise i wouldnt be too worried about bigger clubs, you most likely have an equity edge and you might buy a free card, are you that worried about your clubs being no good?
brettbrettr
10-21-2005, 03:30 PM
No, I'm worried about being 3-bet, losing customers, and not being able to trap as many players on the turn if I hit.
poboys
10-21-2005, 03:32 PM
I was wondering the same thing.. seems like I most likely have an equity edge (b/f things got nutty on the flop) and position. Villians were passive. Thought I'd get a pretty decent chance at a free card on the turn (if no club fell).
Borodog
10-21-2005, 03:45 PM
The preflop limp is not just loose. It's -EV.
BigBrother
10-21-2005, 03:56 PM
My first thought on reading the hand was 'don't raise this flop' but I think the flop raise is actually good since:

a) SB is the only customer you risk losing;

b) You have absolutely no equity in the hand except clubs so if you buy a free card/slow people down on the later street you benefit.

c) Given your read of the table being passive post-flop and the likelyhood that others have a weak draw on this board (AT, KJ etc) you are less likely to get 3-bet and punished for your value-raise. Also by building the pot you are more likely to earn bets from more customers on the big streets.

This hand looks like a good exception to the 'don't pump the flop with weak draws' rule.
BigBrother
10-21-2005, 04:05 PM
I still think there is value in a turn raise despite the weird flop action from UTG2 and BB's turn donk.

UTG2 could have been pumping a straight draw, or hell he could have misclicked.

If BB had you beat he'd probably checkraise given the crazy flop action, so fire away and take it from there.

If you are 3-bet call down.

If you are called bet/call a safe river. If the river makes you puke, so be it...maybe you can find a fold at that point.
poboys
10-21-2005, 04:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
UTG2 could have been pumping a straight draw, or hell he could have misclicked.

[/ QUOTE ]

He played it like he either had JT or a better club draw.

[ QUOTE ]
If BB had you beat he'd probably checkraise given the crazy flop action, so fire away and take it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, esp if he had a made-but vulnerable hand. If he had a set (prior to the turn), I'd expect him to 3-bet it.

Thanks for the reply.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are called bet/call a safe river. If the river makes you puke, so be it...maybe you can find a fold at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another club would make me puke.