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View Full Version : Is the Bicycle Club Breaking the Law?


Timer
06-04-2003, 09:41 PM
What the Bicycle Club is doing is illegal.

The Bike takes a modified drop on most of its top section games. For example, if there is no flop in the 10-20 game then they only take $1 (if memory serves). According to California state law this is illegal. Don’t you think the Commerce Club would do this as well if they could get away with it. (Hollywood Park emulates the Bike.)

There is no rake in California. They can take time collection or what’s called a drop. If the drop is $3 per hand, then that is what they HAVE to take. No flop no drop or a modified drop is illegal. This is how it was explained to me by those in the know.

So how long can the Bike and HP get away with this? I wish it were forever, but if they Bike and HP can do it then Hawaiian Gardens, The Hustler and the Commerce Club should be able to get away with it as well, but they don’t want to run afoul of the law.

As far as I’m concerned the law is a crock, but I’m only a customer.

Rick Nebiolo
06-06-2003, 02:18 AM
Timer,

I work at the Bike and have probably written about rake/drop/collection (primarily on RGP) as much as anyone *. Naturally your post caught my attention.

According to the Bicycle Casino's Manager of Poker Operations Rick Cloward, the modified drop (used in all games) was cleared with the Department of Justice. Other Los Angeles casinos, including Hollywood Park, the Normandie and Hawaiian Gardens have some form of modified drop in their drop games. The Bike just takes it a little farther (e.g., we drop only 50 cents in 20/40 stud/8 if fourth street is not dealt - IMO the main reason we have most of the business in that game). I am working towards making the Bike's collection policies the best in town and upper management has been supportive (I'm lower management /forums/images/icons/grin.gif).

In November of 2001, I started a thread on 2+2 regarding the new law. This was before I started working at the Bike in early 2002. Here is a link to that thread:

http://tinyurl.com/dkau

My lead post in the above thread had a link to the actual law on a California government web site. When 2+2 upgraded its software, the link was lost (it was emailed to me and I probably trashed it long ago). If you or anyone else knows how I could find it, please email me. I've already tried the following California Law search tool to no avail.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

I personally believe that all Los Angeles clubs would benefit if they could find a way to take less from small pots without violating the current law that clearly states the drop can't be dependent on pot size. What may be possible is to take pieces of the drop based on events - i.e., part of the drop on a called postflop bet, the next part on a second called bet/raise and so on.

With a fair drop over time we would attract marginally motivated players (especially daytime retirees with other things to do with their time) that were long ago driven away by the practice of watching $4 or $5 (including jackpot drop) go down the slot on a pot that only contained $10 to $15 (and it can get a lot worse at the Commerce).

With a fair drop the clubs would make more money by attracting more reasonably tight players who tend to be the most aware of the drop. This would speed up the games, make the games play smaller (which would keep players in action and allow them to play a higher limit at a given comfort level). Of course there would be more games and they would start earlier in the day. Even the Commerce is half empty at noon.

Regards,

Rick

* If you are interested in looking over my past posts on RGP regarding rake/drop/collection in Los Angeles, go to Google's Advanced Group Search. Enter "rec.gambling.poker" in the "Newsgoup box", my name in the "Author" box, and "rake drop collection" in the "with at least one of the words" box.

Easy E
06-06-2003, 09:40 AM
" without violating the current law that clearly states the drop can't be dependent on pot size"

That seems strange to codify into law- why was this done?

Timer
06-06-2003, 11:51 AM
This still begs the question: if it were legal to impose a modified drop don't you think the world's largest card casino would have done so? The Commerce Club lost three (yes three!) 20-40 hi-low split games to the Bike. In my opinion they would have used a modified drop from the outset, but they were told they could not--so they did not. Something is going on here.

Rick Nebiolo
06-06-2003, 12:45 PM
Easy E,

I'm not operating at that level (i.e., working with the DOJ on behalf of the card clubs) so anything I say would be either second or third hand information based on what I have heard over the years or what I've personally witnessed as a player. That's my disclaimer. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

California holdem and stud games were spread in the big clubs starting in the spring of 1987 but they were in a precarious legal situation (i.e., the State of California opposed it). During those twenty or so months in 1987 and 1988 the drop was taken from the pot after a threshold (i.e., qualifier) was reached. For example, the $3 drop for 5/10 holdem was taken only after the pot reached $30. The $2 (!) jackpot drop was taken pre flop from the small blind and it was live - i.e., it counted towards the pot. Of course 99% of the pots reached that threshold and all was copasetic for house and the decent player. Meanwhile, the legality of the new poker games (along with the Asian games) was being argued in court.

The legality of holdem and stud and the basic Asian games (pai gow, pai gow poker and super pan 9) was essentially resolved in a state court in late 1988 with the rulings effective in January 1989. These games were now legal but the house would not be allowed to "bank the game". From what I've been told and read, raking the pot based on percentage of pot size is interpreted as "banking the game", especially by the sheriff (whom I've never met) responsible for overseeing enforcement within the County of Los Angeles. Outside Los Angeles County clubs such as Oceanside Card Club were able to maintain the qualifier. Perhaps they were small enough to stay underneath the state's radar.

To comply with the new law in January 1989 the big Los Angeles clubs added a 50-cent "ante" to the 5/10 and 3/6 holdem games. The drop was taken from the "ante" before the hand began. Obviously this hurt the solid player. I've done the analysis here (hard to search) and on RGP (easy to search using Google's Advanced Group Search) many times.

In the mid nineties Hollywood Park opened and they initially tried to implement a live button drop. The Los Angeles County sheriff (responsible for monitoring card clubs) came back from vacation and allowed the button drop but ruled that it must be dead (however, upstate live button drops were somehow allowed and used). Eventually all the Los Angeles County card clubs went to a dead-button drop in holdem.

In January 2002 another law allowed the clubs to take the drop from the pot; unfortunately, taking the drop as a percentage of pot size was still not allowed. I started a 2+2 thread in November 2001 that extensively discussed this law. There is a link to that thread in my earlier post here but the link from the November 2001 thread to the actual law was lost when the forum software was redone (maybe Chuck Weinstock can retrieve it for me /forums/images/icons/grin.gif ).

I'm convinced that had the Los Angeles clubs been able to maintain a drop with qualifier in the low limit games, poker would be in much better shape today. There would be more games (especially early in the day), somewhat faster games (since they would be a little tighter), and the clubs would make just as much per table since the speed would offset the occasional "lost" drop. Additionally, the lower limits would become a training ground for higher limit play.

There is hope for better collections. One small Los Angeles club (The Normandie) uses a system were the second and third dollar of collection is based on called bets/raises post flop. Unfortunately, this club uses one blind and takes the first dollar of collection before the hand begins (this kills the action). Note that this information is based on a detailed survey I took late last summer so it may be out of date. Any updates from readers would be appreciated. My email is in my 2+2 profile.

In part based on recommendations from this survey management at the Bike approved a new system for low limit holdem/Omaha/crazy pineapple where we went back to two blinds, didn't touch the pot pre flop, and only took the jackpot drop after the flop. If there was no flop a modified drop was taken and the Bike's modified drop is either the lowest or tied for the lowest in town. Business in the lower limits (8/16 and below) has improved since those changes were implemented.

Naturally I'm hoping to convince management that making further efforts to legally reduce drop on small pots is in their best interest. IMO there is a vast army of potential customers that have sampled poker at the clubs but are turned off when $4 is taken from a small pot. They vote with their feet and their ghosts haunt the empty seats. The fact that the Commerce is worse (they take a full drop even in somebody steals the blinds) yet relatively busy is testimony to their excellent location. However, even the Commerce is half empty until late in the day. All clubs would benefit from an improved drop.

The card clubs don't have to steal "customer crumbs" from each other; instead we can bake a bigger pie in part with improved collections.

Regards,

Rick

Rick Nebiolo
06-06-2003, 12:55 PM
Timer,

I just posted elswhere in this thread and need to get ready for work so I need to be brief.

My understanding is the city also has to get on board regarding changes. Sometimes they can be short sighted. At other times the club loses business so fast they don't have time to react. This may have been the case with the Commerce 20/40 stud/8.

You are right that the 20/40 stud/8 at the Bike has been very popular and it goes without much prop help. We routinely get three games and one night had five (with all games in a chained must move - UGH /forums/images/icons/mad.gif ).

I'll be online tonight and may post once more this morning after I shower.

Regards,

Rick