Royal Flush Draw and I'm Confused [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

jzpiano14

10-21-2005, 09:55 AM

Villan is a pretty weak player, showdown a lot of strange hands, with bottom pair, K high, your average donk

Hero is in SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
200NL/6 max
Villan has 83.10
Hero has him covered

Villan Limps UTG, MP folds, CO raises to 4, Button Calls, Hero makes it 12 to go (Do you raise more here/or just call), Villan Calls, CO Calls, Button Calls

Flop 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif Pot 50

Hero leads for 20 (~1/2 the pot is my standard CB), Villan Calls, CO folds, Button folds

Turn K /images/graemlins/spade.gif (Pot 90)

Hero leads for 20 (I wasn't sure what to do, do u pot it and put him all in?), Villan calls

River 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (Pot 140)

Hero bets 26.10, all in, villan calls, Looking back at this, I'm thinking check/fold, though i hate it

Comments on all streets

etgryphon

10-21-2005, 10:11 AM

PF:
I don't know. OOP with a limp, a raise and a call. I don't know if AQs is such a great hand. Depending on the table. You raised, not a great idea at all because now you have swelled the pot and your are going to have to put more money in than you need to.

Flop:

Rough. This is an OK flop. I might go for the check-raise allin, but that would only be with the call PF. If you are going to bet it, 1/2 pot is just not smart you have to do the 3/4 to FP bet which would be less because the raise PF gets you into too much trouble.

Turn:

$20?! What is the point? The second K makes you str8/flush outs nearly dead.

River:

I have no idea.

It looks like you didn't really have a plan going into this and didn't know what you wanted to see. You kind of skated around a bit and ended up putting all your money in a wacked out way. You needed to decide if you were going allin on the flop and play accordingly.

-Gryph

jkkkk

10-21-2005, 10:13 AM

I like the pf isolation raise (if thats what it was) but I would raise slightly more to isolate.

If villain is a calling station, I don't like the lead here, check-call is preferrable, same with turn, check-fold river.

EMcWilliams

10-21-2005, 10:17 AM

IF you are gonna raise PF, make it a real raise cause you are OOP and there are several limpers and a raise. Show that you mean business and take control of the hand. I do not like to play AQs or AKs unless I am in control of the hand. That said, hit the flop, c/c the turn, c/f the river. The 20 bet was pretty much useless.

etgryphon

10-21-2005, 10:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the pf isolation raise (if thats what it was) but I would raise slightly more to isolate.

If villain is a calling station, I don't like the lead here, check-call is preferrable, same with turn, check-fold river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the isolation raise? I don't play much 6max (if at all) so I could be out of the loop. I just think that someone is playing a KT with all those callers in 6max. If you really want to isolate you need a heck of a lot more than 12 if you are going to be playing OOP.

-Gryph

JFB37

10-21-2005, 10:19 AM

I don't like it. You are representing a King. That might push out a good player but it is unlikely a good player would have hung around until the river with just a T or an 8. If he is a donk, it isn't crazy to think he might have a King and he might have a T or an 8. I don't see the river push working very often at all.

As to the flop and the turn, the bets are a bit small, especially the turn. You were giving 5.5:1 on the turn. That is very rarely going to get anyone out and gives real long shots implied odds to call if they think you will pay off on the river. As it played out the turn bet actually worked as a semi-blocking bet but I wouldn't recommend it generally.

vulturesrow

10-21-2005, 10:24 AM

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
Villan is a pretty weak player, showdown a lot of strange hands, with bottom pair, K high, your average donk

Hero is in SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
200NL/6 max
Villan has 83.10
Hero has him covered

Villan Limps UTG, MP folds, CO raises to 4, Button Calls, Hero makes it 12 to go (Do you raise more here/or just call), Villan Calls, CO Calls, Button Calls

[/ QUOTE ]
I personally dont raise AQs from the blinds. However, as others have said, you need to put some muscle in that raise if you are going to do it.

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
Flop 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif Pot 50

Hero leads for 20 (~1/2 the pot is my standard CB), Villan Calls, CO folds, Button folds

[/ QUOTE ]

3/4 - full pot bet here.

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
Turn K /images/graemlins/spade.gif (Pot 90)

Hero leads for 20 (I wasn't sure what to do, do u pot it and put him all in?), Villan calls

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/call

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
River 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (Pot 140)

Hero bets 26.10, all in, villan calls, Looking back at this, I'm thinking check/fold, though i hate it

[/ QUOTE ]

Check fold is right.

jzpiano14

10-21-2005, 10:25 AM

He showed his true donkeyness and had JTo, so are we saying c/c the turn, c/f??, put him all in? The river was just a weak attempt, I think the more important decision is obviously the turn.

jkkkk

10-21-2005, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the pf isolation raise (if thats what it was) but I would raise slightly more to isolate.

If villain is a calling station, I don't like the lead here, check-call is preferrable, same with turn, check-fold river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the isolation raise? I don't play much 6max (if at all) so I could be out of the loop. I just think that someone is playing a KT with all those callers in 6max. If you really want to isolate you need a heck of a lot more than 12 if you are going to be playing OOP.

-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok first of all, raising with AQs is bad OOP, unless you are isolating. If the player is 'weak' and has been showing down crap, I'm going to assume the player is more or less a calling station. Now we always want to isolate against these kinds of players with a good hand whether it will be oop or in position, so yes, like I said, I would raise more to isolate, around $16 or so.

We raise OOP to $16 because most players will see this raise OOP as massive strength unless they have cottoned on to the ATM at the table and why we might be raising.

etgryphon

10-21-2005, 10:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He showed his true donkeyness and had JTo, so are we saying c/c the turn, c/f??, put him all in? The river was just a weak attempt, I think the more important decision is obviously the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Bless him...Those are the plays I like to see.

-Gryph

etgryphon

10-21-2005, 10:33 AM

But what hands will you isolate with a $16 raise?

AK/KK/QQ/JJ/TT maybe...Maybe a AJ will call. I just don't see a lot of hands that I want to see.

-Gryph

jkkkk

10-21-2005, 10:36 AM

From a calling station, you will see anything, literally.

etgryphon

10-21-2005, 10:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
From a calling station, you will see anything, literally.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm such a pansy in situations like this...

-Gryph

arod15

10-21-2005, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villan is a pretty weak player, showdown a lot of strange hands, with bottom pair, K high, your average donk

Hero is in SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
200NL/6 max
Villan has 83.10
Hero has him covered

Villan Limps UTG, MP folds, CO raises to 4, Button Calls, Hero makes it 12 to go (Do you raise more here/or just call), Villan Calls, CO Calls, Button Calls

Flop 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif Pot 50

Hero leads for 20 (~1/2 the pot is my standard CB), Villan Calls, CO folds, Button folds

Turn K /images/graemlins/spade.gif (Pot 90)

Hero leads for 20 (I wasn't sure what to do, do u pot it and put him all in?), Villan calls

River 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (Pot 140)

Hero bets 26.10, all in, villan calls, Looking back at this, I'm thinking check/fold, though i hate it

Comments on all streets

[/ QUOTE ]

Check the flop and raise big if someone bets it. At that point you have a monster draw. I dont like leading there at all. And bet more on the turn. On the river you have no FE so just check fold...

ajmargarine

10-21-2005, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop and raise big if someone bets it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking too. C/r the flop big (ai?). Preflop, limp or fold. OOP play like this=burning money.

jzpiano14

10-21-2005, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop and raise big if someone bets it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking too. C/r the flop big (ai?). Preflop, limp or fold. OOP play like this=burning money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't raise here to isolate?

Some one leads flop for 30, do you push here with another 220, or raise to 120ish leaving only 100 behind. Stack sizes make this c/r awkard

jkkkk

10-21-2005, 01:17 PM

To all the people who recommend check-push;

You are going to have next to 0% folding equity on any of these streets, why not build value when we hit?

jzpiano14

10-21-2005, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To all the people who recommend check-push;

You are going to have next to 0% folding equity on any of these streets, why not build value when we hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you don't hit the turn, what's ur plan?

yvesaint

10-21-2005, 01:34 PM

why is your continuation bet 1/2 pot

in fact its not even 1/2 pot its LESS than 1/2 pot

why are you betting SO SMALL against a SHORT STACKED VILLAIN with a draw

either check-raise all-in on the flop (which is ok against guys who can FOLD usually NOT short stacks) or lead 3/4 ish

CHECK TURN why are you betting so small yet again

WHY did you push river, check it, you bet 26 in the hopes that he'd fold something? against a short stacked villain? NEVER is he folding any pair there!!

actually, i cant really even comment on the river, because you shouldnt have gotten yourself in that position to begin with

pre-flop can go either way, but if youre going to raise, raise MORE. there's 13 in the pot already before you even raise, and you raised to 12. sick. seriously, what's with the pussy mini bets/raises.

jkkkk

10-21-2005, 01:34 PM

Check and call if given odds, which is not all that unlikely from a fish. If we push the flop we are coin flipping against Kx, I believe there is much more EV in playing passively with a draw against these sorts of players unless the pot is small and we need to build it.

yvesaint

10-21-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check and call if given odds, which is not all that unlikely from a fish. If we push the flop we are coin flipping against Kx, I believe there is much more EV in playing passively with a draw against these sorts of players unless the pot is small and we need to build it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think if you check the flop there is a good chance CO/Button bets

villain is only villain in this hand because hero led out and he was the only one to call

i also dont mind seeing this flop checked through at all

although by the turn i give it up unless im getting good odds

jzpiano14

10-21-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why is your continuation bet 1/2 pot

in fact its not even 1/2 pot its LESS than 1/2 pot

why are you betting SO SMALL against a SHORT STACKED VILLAIN with a draw

either check-raise all-in on the flop (which is ok against guys who can FOLD usually NOT short stacks) or lead 3/4 ish

CHECK TURN why are you betting so small yet again

WHY did you push river, check it, you bet 26 in the hopes that he'd fold something? against a short stacked villain? NEVER is he folding any pair there!!

actually, i cant really even comment on the river, because you shouldnt have gotten yourself in that position to begin with

pre-flop can go either way, but if youre going to raise, raise MORE. there's 13 in the pot already before you even raise, and you raised to 12. sick. seriously, what's with the pussy mini bets/raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my not so great weak tight moments, what do u think is better a lead into the field or a CR? Given my PF raise

ajmargarine

10-21-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop and raise big if someone bets it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking too. C/r the flop big (ai?). Preflop, limp or fold. OOP play like this=burning money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't raise here to isolate?

Some one leads flop for 30, do you push here with another 220, or raise to 120ish leaving only 100 behind. Stack sizes make this c/r awkard

[/ QUOTE ]

Oy. Read it as Hero having $83.10 stack. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

jzpiano14

10-21-2005, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop and raise big if someone bets it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking too. C/r the flop big (ai?). Preflop, limp or fold. OOP play like this=burning money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't raise here to isolate?

Some one leads flop for 30, do you push here with another 220, or raise to 120ish leaving only 100 behind. Stack sizes make this c/r awkard

[/ QUOTE ]

Oy. Read it as Hero having $83.10 stack. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My stack was aournd 250 or so, with CO at 220 and Button at 170

kurto

10-21-2005, 01:53 PM

I don't think berating the guy is the right attitude to take in this situation.

You had a read on the guy:
[ QUOTE ]
Villan is a pretty weak player, showdown a lot of strange hands, with bottom pair, K high, your average donk

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to bluff someone who'll call down with bottom pair? There's no need to bet aggressively out of position with just a draw to someone who'll call with any piece of it. Check/call and bet large with your made hands.... you know he'll pay you off.

The only reason to bet into a calling station is for value.