Using a villian's good habits against him.

[Grifter]

So I was talking with a few other players about what we know about good players (especially players who frequent these boards) and how we can use that knowledge to our advantage. We came up with this; when playing in position, HU, with a good villian and you notice him using the standard WA/WB (c/c, c/c, b) line, the hero should consider raising the river bet. The thinking is that if the villian is taking a line that dictates a fold to a river raise, the hero should raise the river (I realize this is not exactly a brilliant observation.) I ran some math on this, but I would like to see what people say first. Also, if anyone has any good hands to post in this nature, that would probably be helpful. Your thoughts?

[JacksonTens]

I say 'goodluck with that'. A few Questions. Obviously this is a pychological play. So a few Qs.

Do you have the guts to hit it for 2 BB on the river with TP into a tough player?

What if your bluff re-raised? (a likely possiblitie if your caught by the right player)

What kind of hands are you thinking of doing this with?

IMO I put this in the 'Once a week' playlist. I have a bunch of wacko manouvres that go in my OAW list, maybe I'll put this one in there too.

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Grifter]

Again, I haven't tried this too often, but I would try this play with a medium Ace if I opened raised from LP and Villian was a blind. Or with higher-than-medium Ace if villian limped/called from MP. Obviously, the better chance you are ahead (even if that chance is not huge) the better. But the % of times villian fold does not need to be too high for this play to work?
Your thougts?

[Harv72b]

Against a good (read: thinking) player, this will work twice, maybe three times before he's got a note on you saying to call your river raises.

Then again, I watched one LAG raise practically every river and make a killing against a bunch of weak/tighties one night, so it does have its place. I just wouldn't go using this move too often.

[hobbsmann]

I think this is an interesting observation, but something that should be noted is that standard lines like the one given above are often used against non creative tight players and (at least is the case for myself) they should be adjusted against thinking TAGs.

[TripleH68]

I have bluff raised rivers on occasion. My tight image has helped me I am sure since I have a VP$IP around 15-16.

As has been pointed out this is the kind of move that when caught will be noted by nearly all the players at the table.

[shant]

Sweet idea. I call those river raises and get shown K-high lots.

Edit: Also, who said the c/c, c/c, bet line ended in a fold? The line I always knew was c/c, c/c, b/c.

[clownshoes]

Whoever bet/folds with this line is grossly misusing it

[habsfanca11]

There's always a raise vs someone betting Clarkmeister Theorem. That would put this play in the "few times" category. After all, how often do you get a four flush board HU against a good, thinking opponent. Having said that, if you think he's pulling a Clarkmeister on you - raise him up. The line is after all to fold to a raise. Yes?

[habsfanca11]

Is that official? I thought the whole point of the line was to put in the least when behind and win the most when ahead - and therefore fold to a raise on the river. Care to confirm?

[krimson]

wa/wb usually results in a fairly small pot. So your risking 2 bets to win, what, 5 or 6 at most in the pot? This definitely doesn't work often enough to be profitable, since people rarely will fold for 1 more bet on the river.

And as mentioned most people using this line will c/c c/c b/c.

[Grifter]

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. I don't think I would ever reccomend using this play with K high (straight bluff.) I think the best time to use it is when you have some chance of being ahead, but almost no chance of being 3-bet. My argument, (and it may be wrong) is that seeing the predictable line allows you to add points to the villians fold %.
Your thoughts?