2/4 NL Stars, Covering the table, Flopped Set, Should I FOLD ???

I dont know the exact chip amounts but remember the hand as clear as day. 9 players (am gonna mention the relevent ones).

SB Hero ($888) Dealt 22

MP1 ($450ish)

CO Villain #1 ($350ish)

Button Villain #2 ($420ish)

MP1 raises to $16, Co calls Button calls and I call Preflop.

Flop

8 3 2 RAINBOW

Orignal Raiser MP1 bets $40

CO (Villain #1) raises to $90

Buttton (Villain #2) smooth calls

HERO ?????????????????????????????

How many are gonna muck the 222 here???? Keep in mind this is 2-4 not 5-10, I have seen a lotta BS here like Villain #1 pulling out 99 or maybe Button having 45, but I dont know these players , never seen them , and have no reads. Only know MP1, who was the preflop raiser, and is reasonably solid (I think he is mucking after this action anyways)

[SirFelixCat]

There are only two hands that you are behind and I think it is safe to assume that MP1 doesn't have either of them, likely an overpair or AK. There are two other players in the hand CO and Button. I don't think that the CO would fast play a set like that, as it is a non-threatening board. So this leaves us with the button, who very well could have a bigger set, 2 pair, OESD, or others. Even if one of them hits their straight, you still have 10 outs to improve.

I don't see anyway you're laying this down. If it's set over set, c'est la vie. If it's me, the pot is $284. I pop it to the tune of a pot-sized raise and give all draws the wrong odds and put the screws to any 2 pair holdings.

[xorbie]

I higly doubt anyone has two pair.

[savman]

barring a read to the contrary i fold here, and i rarely fold sets...hell i just posted a hand where i call 4x pot with tp4k...but i think u could find a fold here.

[Chaostracize]

I push and love every second of it.

[ahnuld]

Raise or fold. Is raising to 200 and folding to a push just gross? This seems like an okay time to do it since nobody would be dumb enough to do it without having 222 beat.

[Rotterdaum]

I think folding the 2s should be strongly considered, though it's tough to do.

That raise is no joke at these stakes and with relation to the pot, and the call after it ESPECIALLY ... nobody with a draw should be making that smooth call, having an original raiser/flop bettor +1 more player to act behind him. I think it's reasonable to fold the 2s here.

[jonnyUCB]

This can depend on dynamics between CO and pfr - if PFR is likely to have BS here, CO might make this play with an overpair to the board "to shut out overcards".

Button concerns me, though. What's his range after a raise and cold-call? Does he play looser with position? He could easily have a wheel draw here, and if he's that loose he could just as easily have A8 hoping to hit. Though the 2/4 stars game is virtually void of these fun types.

[jonnyUCB]

also.. i hate to sound arrogant but this belongs here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker)

Just cause you play the 5/10+ doesn't mean all your posts go to MH

[Smokey_McPot]

[ QUOTE ]
How many are gonna muck the 222 here????

[/ QUOTE ]
Not a one I hope.

On to the hand; bet the pot.

[Smokey_McPot]

[ QUOTE ]
Is raising to 200 and folding to a push just gross?

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this a trick question? Yes?

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like an okay time to do it since nobody would be dumb enough to do it without having 222 beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your understimating how stupid people are in general

[sawseech]

there's 290 in there and it's 90 to call
a pot reraise here is close to 500 total
you'll have like 400 left after potting

calling is idiotic
folding for this action is stupid

if you get oversetted here there's nothing you can do

[sawseech]

oh
just push

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
calling is idiotic
folding for this action is stupid


[/ QUOTE ]

both of these statements are wrong, although i think i am leaning towards a push as well.

[Xizor]

I took a look at the Stars 2/4 games yesterday, Players/flop <15%
That is freaking crazy. I say muck it, the stars people are as tight as..well yeah tight. I think playing this set is -ev.

[Kirkrrr]

This is really tough. I'd probably lay it down. Button's cold-calling knowing there's you and the PFR still to act isn't an OESD or TPTK, assuming he's got a brain... which is a good assumption to make until proven otherwise.

My response may be biased from having gotten into (and having seen) set-over-set situations w/ 22 more times than I can count.

Kirk

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calling is idiotic
folding for this action is stupid


[/ QUOTE ]

both of these statements are wrong, although i think i am leaning towards a push as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

pushing into this pot w/ like 800 behind and a $90 bet into that pot is a sickening overbet. even if button played AA like this (slowplayed pf and "likes" this baord...although 33 / 88 is definately possible) he would probably muck 88 to a 800 reraise into 3 other players. that push ONLY gets called by 88/33. everybody else folds. even 99-QQ probably ditch it at this point.

the flop: given this action, if you are ahead, it is likely to a hand like A8s, 99-AA and there are MANY turn cards that can come and kill your action. getting the $$ in now is the best place to do it. further, you dont know how much you'll like the T if it hits. or the J. basically, the only card you know you DO like is another 2. GL w/ that /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Either way, i think a raise here is the best play. 284 in the pot to the hero. i think a raise of 210 is a good play here. i also think that if everybody ELSE had 800 behind, hero could fold to the reraise and push. given they don't, they are probably all going all in at this point and hero has to call and pray. but i think hero's chances of havingthe best hand remain high if he calls the reraise of his 300 bet than if he pushes and gets called.

Barron

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
pushing into this pot w/ like 800 behind and a $90 bet into that pot is a sickening overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
284 in the pot to the hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i think a raise of 210 is a good play here. i also think that if everybody ELSE had 800 behind, hero could fold to the reraise and push. given they don't, they are probably all going all in at this point and hero has to call

[/ QUOTE ]
Um....it's not a 'sickening overbet' because it is ~300 pot and ~300 raise. No one else has 800 behind, as you point out.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pushing into this pot w/ like 800 behind and a $90 bet into that pot is a sickening overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
284 in the pot to the hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i think a raise of 210 is a good play here. i also think that if everybody ELSE had 800 behind, hero could fold to the reraise and push. given they don't, they are probably all going all in at this point and hero has to call

[/ QUOTE ]
Um....it's not a 'sickening overbet' because it is ~300 pot and ~300 raise. No one else has 800 behind, as you point out.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. i couldn't see my last point for my first point /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

i guess thats a long way of saying "im w/ durr, but wouldn't be if all stacks were 200xbb"

and wait a sec...this isn't deep...post in SS, no?

Barron

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
and wait a sec...this isn't deep...post in SS, no?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a losing battle, but FWIW I agree with you. I post all my 2/4 hands in SSNL even if they are deep stacked. People there are smart. And they have a generally better feel for how the 2/4 games play than people in MHNL.

OK fellas,
Thanks for the response. And yes yes , OMG how could I not realize this belongs in SSNL. Im sorry just thought I had seen some 2-4 hands here before, but I guess the stacks were not deep enough in this particular hand, i'll be sure to keep that in mind in the future. Moving right along then ..............................

The correct line actually was given to me by one of the main posters here on IM.

As it is I was sick when I saw the cold call by button and had an eerrie feeling on the action on the flop that I suspected 333. What I should have done is cold call the raise my self and see what devolps after a turn check, on further action (sizable that is), lay the set.

Instead, as always I was on tilt and going for broke or the big score (just great strategy BTW), and I pushed in on the flop (moronic), the preflop raiser folded (99 he said) and the other two Insta Called. The rest is OBV .....

Set/Set/Set.

Indital raiser either has nothing or a big pair. Cutoff probably has Ace 9. And the button either has 4-5....or 9s 10s or jacks-depending how good of a player he is. Move all in right here and get the raisers money or let the button get yours when he shows you a higher set. Play poker...don't be a pussy

[ansky451]

What does everyone think of buttons cold call here? Who raises? I do, I think.