Is this bad etiquette?

[Rick Nebiolo]

From a recent fixed buy NL game.

Sort of tight player in seat 4 and super action player in seat 6 get all the money in before the flop. Seat 6 covers by a bit and pot is about $900. Seat 6 immediately shows a pair of kings. Flop comes small cards unsuited. Seat 6 is excited. Seat 4 doesn't show any emotion nor does he show his cards. Turn is an offsuit baby. Seat 4 stays quiet. River is another blank. Seat 6 is still excited. Seat 4 now turns over AA (surprise!) and wins the pot.

It turns out seat 6 didn't get upset but in my experience many would and maybe even have left the table.

Was seat 4 wrong to not show his hand once he had the big lead after the flop with the money all-in?

[Jeffage]

Who put in the last bet preflop?

Jeff

[mikech]

it's not a tournament, no need to flip the cards up.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Who put in the last bet preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have mentioned this. BTF seat 3 makes a normal raise (to $30 or so), seat 4 makes a normal reraise (to about $120), and now seat 6 goes all in. Seat 3 goes into the tank and then folds queens face up. Seat 4 then calls.

What bothered me is that seat 6 is a very loose recreational player who also seems to be a real nice guy. To keep the game fun I think it's best to show right away given aces were a mile ahead.

~ Rick

[Jeffage]

I think it's best for him to just table his cards, but I don't think it was bad ettiquette for him not to do so since he called the other guy's all-in bet. He is entitled to see his cards first and since the showdown isn't until the last card is dealt, his waiting is fine (if a king rivers, he can just muck for example).

That said, I just turn my cards over either way in these spots.

Jeff

[Photoc]

He doesn't have to table them until he's sure he's won the pot, plain and simple. If people are going to get mad and leave, let them. Someone will take their spot. If this kind of thing makes a player quit playing poker, then they have a lot more serious personal issues that you would imagine.

It's not a tournament. The showdown is at the end of the hand, no preflop.

[Brain]

No, he certainly doesn't have to, but I think I would. I don't play live NL and maybe I've watched too much TV, but it seems like this would be best for a happy game.

[Justin A]

I've played with poeple who are embarrassed to lose with AA and therefore won't show their hand until they're sure they've won.

[Photoc]

As for etiquette...as a player, I could care less what they do with their cards, unless they are angle shooting. Just ship me the pot when I win is all that I ask.

[Brain]

No, that's fine. I was just trying to put myself in the mind of a tourist too.

[fyodor]

[ QUOTE ]
seat 6 goes all in. Seat 3 goes into the tank and then folds queens face up. Seat 4 then calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seat 3 should be shot. And it's not even close.

[SNOWBALL138]

If I was seat 4, I would show my cards 100 percent of the time, especially since seat 6 is a nice guy and a loose recreational player. Since seat 6 wasn't bothered by it, I guess it wasn't a big deal. If I were seat six, I might feel that I got slowrolled, even though slowrolling is different than what is described in the OP.

[Army Eye]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
seat 6 goes all in. Seat 3 goes into the tank and then folds queens face up. Seat 4 then calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seat 3 should be shot. And it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what is seat 3 doing showing his cards when there's still action?

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, what is seat 3 doing showing his cards when there's still action?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so common in this and some other casinos that it's pathetic so I forgot to focus on it.

Quick Story:

A couple months ago I'm in a NL game watching a pot develop from seat 2. Pot is already big on the turn. Seat 3 is very deep and bets the pot. Seat 7 (also deep) puts in a big raise. Seat 9 goes in the tank for a bit. As he folds he stands up and clearly shows his cards to seat 7 before tossing them in the muck. Even though I'm not in the pot I call him on it (i.e., his horrific breach of etiquette) as it wasn't his first indiscretion. He's all over me calling me names and stuff.

Turns out seat 9 is an attorney who is deeply involved with launching a new poker magazine that has something to do with the formation of some kind of poker players association. I wonder who will be the etiquette expert /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

~ Rick

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who put in the last bet preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have mentioned this. BTF seat 3 makes a normal raise (to $30 or so), seat 4 makes a normal reraise (to about $120), and now seat 6 goes all in. Seat 3 goes into the tank and then folds queens face up. Seat 4 then calls.

What bothered me is that seat 6 is a very loose recreational player who also seems to be a real nice guy. To keep the game fun I think it's best to show right away given aces were a mile ahead.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of if the guy is good for the game, it is bad etiquette, plain and simple.

The only way I would approve is if the other guy was a slow-rolling jerk. But only if I was to follow through and educate the whole table that this is bad etiquette and I only did it cuz he deserved it for being a tool. If I just slow-rolled, it would be reinforcing and encouraging the practice.

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple months ago I'm in a NL game watching a pot develop from seat 2. Pot is already big on the turn. Seat 3 is very deep and bets the pot. Seat 7 (also deep) puts in a big raise. Seat 9 goes in the tank for a bit. As he folds he stands up and clearly shows his cards to seat 7 before tossing them in the muck. Even though I'm not in the pot I call him on it (i.e., his horrific breach of etiquette) as it wasn't his first indiscretion. He's all over me calling me names and stuff.


[/ QUOTE ]

To me, etiquette is not in the rules. This seems like a clear violation of the rules.

This is not a slowroll. Conceivably AA could have a tactical reason for not showing. For instance, if a King flopped and AA was outdrawn, he would have the option of mucking his hand to not show what he moved all-in on. Since there is a tactical justification for not flipping, this could conceivably be a legitimate play.

[Black Aces 518]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who put in the last bet preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have mentioned this. BTF seat 3 makes a normal raise (to $30 or so), seat 4 makes a normal reraise (to about $120), and now seat 6 goes all in. Seat 3 goes into the tank and then folds queens face up. Seat 4 then calls.

What bothered me is that seat 6 is a very loose recreational player who also seems to be a real nice guy. To keep the game fun I think it's best to show right away given aces were a mile ahead.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy crap. The huge etiquette breach is on Player 3 folding faceup when there is still action to go. Imagine if Player 4 has the KK and player 6 has the AA. Player 4 can now heavily discount the likelihood of Player 6 having QQ. If I was player 6, and that made player 4 fold his KK against my AA, I would probably have the first fight of my life.

[arod15]

He doesnt have to show. No bad eddiquitte there....

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
He doesnt have to show. No bad eddiquitte there....

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't people understand what etiquette is? If someone is merging into traffic right next to you and you don't slow down or speed up to let him in, that is poor etiquette. You don't have to slow down or speed up, so it isn't illegal, but it is still poor etiquette.

[andyfox]

In no-limit, it's cool for both players to show right away. Plus it's nice in that both players know exactly where they are from the get-go.

In limit, I always show right away when my opponent goes all in. It's a courtesy that I would like to have extended to me were I in that position (which, of course, sometimes I am).

It just comes down to the Golden Rule. If you wouldn't want to think your kings are good because the other guy didn't show his aces, then don't do it to the other guy. Some players seem to enjoy the meanness of the act as much as winning the pot.

A couple weeks ago a guy bets on the river and I call. He says "no pair" and I show my top two. He then tables his flush. I say nothing, but another player at the table says, "No pair and no class."

Exactly.h

[swede123]

Very good post, Andy. I try to do the same everytime I'm heads up with an all-in.

Swede

My absolute favorite slow roll ever (thats sarcasm) . . .

I'm playing in a $4 & $8 game and get pocket Kings. I raise pre flop and bet the whole way and get called down by an old woman. On the River the Ace falls and I throw out my $8 bet. She calls by throwing out 2 red chips. As soon as she calls I flip up my Kings and ask "you got the ace?" She refuses to turn over her cards and points to her two red chips and demands that the dealer give her change. The dealer hesitates waiting to see what she is going to do. She demands her change so the dealer brings in the chips and gives her $2 and then she flips over her cards which of course include an Ace.

Another player commented on the rudeness of that and she says in broken english that she has been playing poker for 25 years and she don't tell her how to play.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

IMO a nut-kicking should have taken place here. When you've got the aces, and someone else turns up the kings, just friggin' turn 'em up already and skip the slowroll. If you had the kings and they had the aces, I might be a little more sympathetic. In this case Mr. dingleberry-eater /images/graemlins/grin.gif is probably going to piss off the action player to the point where he won't be buying in again any time soon.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Turns out seat 9 is an attorney who is deeply involved with launching a new poker magazine that has something to do with the formation of some kind of poker players association. I wonder who will be the etiquette expert

[/ QUOTE ]

great, just what we need - another crappy poker magazine written by idiots / A-holes. Is it any wonder I have completely stopped reading ALL poker magazines altogether?

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I gotta disagree strongly here my friend. If you're way ahead, turn em up or it looks and feels like a slowroll.

al

I think it's bad for the game because it is very typical to turn hands face up once all the money is in, and most players are accustomed to it. I also think it's bad for the player to not show right away because it is such a typical practice to do so. As long as both hands are face-up by the river, I don't have a huge problem with what seat 4 did. Big all-ins in heads-up situations are hotbeds for collusion in NL, so I'd want both hands shown down.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Just before observing the action from the lead post I had just listened to Tommy Angelo's song "Slowroll" on my MP3 player. This story was almost as good /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[Ghazban]

This thread got me thinking of a hand I played a while back in which my actions might be seen as dickish.

I'm headsup with a bad player in a no-limit game. I checkraised him with 33 on a JTT flop for various reasons and he looked very uncomfortable about it. On the brick turn (a seven or something), I pushed all-in (I had him covered; at least I didn't say "I put you all-in" but that expression is a pet peeve of mine), he hemmed and hawed for quite a while and finally called. As soon as he called, he flipped over his AJ. Am I a jerk for not showing my treys? I was going to muck without showing if I didn't hit my 2-outer. I did say "good call, you're ahead" but didn't reveal my hand. As soon as the river came (a trey because I was in luckbox mode that day), I said "I'm really sorry" and promptly tabled my hand. Was I a jerk for not showing earlier?

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
It just comes down to the Golden Rule. If you wouldn't want to think your kings are good because the other guy didn't show his aces, then don't do it to the other guy. Some players seem to enjoy the meanness of the act as much as winning the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hits the nail on the head although seat four didn't seem to be the mean type.


[ QUOTE ]
A couple weeks ago a guy bets on the river and I call. He says "no pair" and I show my top two. He then tables his flush. I say nothing, but another player at the table says, "No pair and no class." - Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good mini-story.

~ Rick

[steamboatin]

If the recreational player is good for the game and I assume that he is and He is a nice guy, why in the hell would you not show him your aces immediately? Do you want him to rebuy and stay in the game or get his feelings hurt and go play slots?

I hope he left and got replaced by a really good player or a tight ass table coach that kills the action for everybody.

[steamboatin]

I am going to say no because you were behind. In the OP the guy that didn't show was ahead the whole way. I don't think anyone is going to be upset if you don't flip up a hand that is behind.

[Dominic]

I'm sorry, but in a NL ring game, you are not required to turn your hands face-up before the river, like you are in a tournament. This is not a slow-roll.

[lapoker17]

In this game, he should turn them up - Primarily because of who he is in the hand against and the size of the game.

If the game were bigger, or the participants pros, there is no reason for him to turn them up until he knows they're good.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He doesnt have to show. No bad eddiquitte there....

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't people understand what etiquette is? If someone is merging into traffic right next to you and you don't slow down or speed up to let him in, that is poor etiquette. You don't have to slow down or speed up, so it isn't illegal, but it is still poor etiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks you. Almost every response in this thread has been "he doesn't have to, he doesn't have to, he doesn't have to". No one asked if he had to; that has nothing at all to do with the original post. The question comes down to whether the guy was being a bit of a dick and I think the answer is yes. I really don't think it's a big secret that you call all-in with AA.

SpaceAce

[Ulysses]

IMO, only nits don't show in that spot. I just flip 'em up there. I don't care whether I have a made hand or draw or whether I'm ahead or behind. I feel it just helps keep a fun, lively atttiude for the game, which usually tends to make them better.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
What bothered me is that seat 6 is a very loose recreational player who also seems to be a real nice guy. To keep the game fun I think it's best to show right away given aces were a mile ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

It astonishes me that anyone would think otherwise.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
In this game, he should turn them up - Primarily because of who he is in the hand against and the size of the game.

If the game were bigger, or the participants pros, there is no reason for him to turn them up until he knows they're good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 99%. The missing one percent is because I think even in a situation where it's tough pro against tough pro in a big game sometimes it's a good idea to give away a little now and then. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

~ Rick