$11s: back to basics

[liucipher]

Want to plug my leaks - afraid I may be playing too weakly. More than "fold/bet" advice, I'm looking to confirm the reasoning.

1.) out of position + only semi-strong holding + crowded pot + blinds are still low = fold?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t785)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t790)
Button (t980)
Hero (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t660)
UTG+2 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, Button calls t15, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t87.50) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t40</font>, CO folds, Button folds, Hero ???

2.) I've been following AleoMagus advice to look for sets w/ TT-. But I have position and I've seen some posts advocating TT raises in that situation. Weak?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t875)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t965)
Hero (t770)
SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t645)
UTG+1 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t15, Hero ???

[pineapple888]

In 1., I'm folding. Maybe preflop, if I'm busy on other tables. This hand is just unplayable unless you hit two pair or a set (and you can still go broke with a set of aces).

In 2., I'm calling because of the set value.

Raising either wins you a small pot or often gets you into difficult post-flop situations, because now you have too much invested to let it go with no set and, say, one overcard. You can too easily bleed chips away.

As the blinds rise, this equation changes, and you play the hand faster pre-flop.

Hand #1: I fold pre-flop, specifically to avoid situations like this. Having said that, I probably call here because you're closing the action, and then re-evaluate on the turn, hoping for a free card and folding to a decent bet. I don't think folding is terrible, but if you fold to this flop, you might as well fold pre-flop.

Hand #2: With the deeper stacks at Stars, I'd definitely raise here. But at Party, I probably call and play for set value. I don't think a raise is terrible, but I tend to get myself in trouble c-betting, so I've been limping hands like this more often, looking for good flops.

[tigerite]

Fold for 5 chips?! Are you kidding??

FWIW it's close between fold and call on the flop, for me. I'd probably let it go but I wouldn't hate to call then lead the turn.

Second one.. just call.

[pineapple888]

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Fold for 5 chips?! Are you kidding??


[/ QUOTE ]

I fold with 94o for 5 chips, and I'd rather play that hand than this one multi-way.

[tigerite]

Unbelievable.. well ok fold for 5 chips if you suck at post flop play I guess.. I never would fold for 5 chips with 94o in this situation.

[liucipher]

Am I really less than 11:1 to flop 2 pair or better? I only completed with the hopes of winning the lotto against AK or something.

In terms of that hand, I was more curious if I should lead out and see where I stand, because I think stronger aces reraise me.

[SCfuji]

hand 1 complete is cool
call the flop donk 1/2 pot on turn/fold to a push

hand 2 raise to t60ish.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Unbelievable.. well ok fold for 5 chips if you suck at post flop play I guess.. I never would fold for 5 chips with 94o in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. More attitude for no reason. Grow up.

Look up "reverse implied odds" if you really want to learn something. Add in 5 other tables, and maybe you'll see why it's not at all crystal clear to call, as you seem to think.

[psyduck]

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Unbelievable.. well ok fold for 5 chips if you suck at post flop play I guess.. I never would fold for 5 chips with 94o in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. More attitude for no reason. Grow up.

Look up "reverse implied odds" if you really want to learn something. Add in 5 other tables, and maybe you'll see why it's not at all crystal clear to call, as you seem to think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you retarded? You're getting like 20:1 to complete, and that's not even factoring in implied odds. I complete with ANY TWO.

We've been through this before.

I'm curious whether anyone would have bet the flop rather than check. My instinct would be to make some sort of probe bet and fold to a re-raise. Sometimes when I do this, I'm surprised to find that everyone has folded. But, no one has mentioned that, so maybe I've found a leak. Or, maybe this is a tactic that only works in the low limits so ought not to be learned and then un-learned.

[liucipher]

SCFuji -

What's your rationale for calling and then leading for 1/2 the pot on the turn? If I believe I'm ahead, what's wrong with leading and/or check-raising on the flop? Is it because it commits me to a continuation bet if he calls?

[pergesu]

K-T and a diamond are all bad cards on the turn. You have absolutely no idea where you're at. Could be ahead, could be behind..but given that you don't have a clue, could be drawing nearly dead to AJ, and there are lots of turn cards that you don't want to see makes this a pretty shitty situation and should make it obvious that you need to dump it.

As far as TT on the button, raising preflop does a couple things that you don't really want, even with that hand and position. First it creates a bigger pot, which means you'll want/need to win it much more than you would a smaller pot. Secondly, it puts your opponents on the defensive. At first it seems like it'd be nice to make a larger pot and have defensive opponents, but it's really not, because your opponents go into a bad defensive mode - they're a lot less willing to commit their entire stacks on subpar hands.

Basically if you raise here and get a very nice 972 rainbow flop, you'll very likely get an $11 donk to put his stack in with a 9. But you probably won't get them to put their stack in with a 7 and definitely not a 2, whereas if you don't raise preflop you can often get action from a 7 or even a 2. Maybe not the stack, but at least some chips.

The opponents you play are so bad and so willing to play for their stacks with absolutely shitty holdings that you should never focus on picking up small pots, and instead focus on getting their stacks in the middle when you have by far the best of it.

So don't raise there preflop, because you don't do anything to increase the number of chips you can potentially, and in fact almost certainly decrease the number of chips you can win. This has gotten kind of long and I'm sorry for that, but I think this is an important concept to beating the easy games. Your opponents so horrendous that you should keep the pots as small as possible until you know you probably have the best hand, and then get their stack in. Note that I'm not saying you should nut peddle, and in fact I generally play in such a way that doesn't protect my hand the best, but stands the best chance of getting their entire stack in at some point when I think I'm best.

[Jurollo]

In $11s I am raising TT with position and playing more cautiously on the flop. Perhaps T60 preflop and then reevaluate postflop. Just remember to proceed with caution postflop.
~Justin

[liucipher]

Thanks. Very helpful post.

Though as I said in another post, I just wanted to be a pushbot ... Your method requires postflop play ... Oh well, I guess I gotta learn ... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[pergesu]

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In $11s I am raising TT with position and playing more cautiously on the flop. Perhaps T60 preflop and then reevaluate postflop. Just remember to proceed with caution postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand this, and against good opponents I think it's absolutely right. At an $11 though, you can play in such a way to make your decisions easy and stack somebody. That sounds like a fun way to play poker, doesn't it?

[SCfuji]

dont be afraid to see a turn card. if you are ahead in this hand i dont think its by much and a blank turn card will increase the strength of your hand. if you call the flop, which i would do and a diamond comes then id check/fold to a pot sized bet. if you really want to shut the guy down then check raise all in but thats not my preferred play here.

[Damian UK]

??? I am really confused here ???

You dont raise with 10 10 because you don't want to build a large pot as anyone who calls and misses wont pay you off, so you let them limp in for nothing and then they will pay you off because they have a poor TP?

And surely you do actually have the best hand PF with 10 10 against any two random cards that include a 9 or 7, so why not raise, let the donk call with Q9 and get paid off?

I can't see how when you are sure you have the best hand post flop you are guareenteed to get a donk to put their money in with a rubbish 2nd pair?

You seem to be contridicting yourself - (or I am a donk and don't get what you are saying!! /images/graemlins/confused.gif)

Cheers

Damian


[ QUOTE ]

As far as TT on the button, raising preflop does a couple things that you don't really want, even with that hand and position. First it creates a bigger pot, which means you'll want/need to win it much more than you would a smaller pot. Secondly, it puts your opponents on the defensive. At first it seems like it'd be nice to make a larger pot and have defensive opponents, but it's really not, because your opponents go into a bad defensive mode - they're a lot less willing to commit their entire stacks on subpar hands.

Basically if you raise here and get a very nice 972 rainbow flop, you'll very likely get an $11 donk to put his stack in with a 9. But you probably won't get them to put their stack in with a 7 and definitely not a 2, whereas if you don't raise preflop you can often get action from a 7 or even a 2. Maybe not the stack, but at least some chips.

The opponents you play are so bad and so willing to play for their stacks with absolutely shitty holdings that you should never focus on picking up small pots, and instead focus on getting their stacks in the middle when you have by far the best of it.

So don't raise there preflop, because you don't do anything to increase the number of chips you can potentially, and in fact almost certainly decrease the number of chips you can win. This has gotten kind of long and I'm sorry for that, but I think this is an important concept to beating the easy games. Your opponents so horrendous that you should keep the pots as small as possible until you know you probably have the best hand, and then get their stack in. Note that I'm not saying you should nut peddle, and in fact I generally play in such a way that doesn't protect my hand the best, but stands the best chance of getting their entire stack in at some point when I think I'm best.

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[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
dont be afraid to see a turn card. if you are ahead in this hand i dont think its by much and a blank turn card will increase the strength of your hand. if you call the flop, which i would do and a diamond comes then id check/fold to a pot sized bet. if you really want to shut the guy down then check raise all in but thats not my preferred play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I play it exactly this way, call the flop, bet the turn if it's not a diamond, and maybe not a Q if the guy is really fishy.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]

I understand this, and against good opponents I think it's absolutely right. At an $11 though, you can play in such a way to make your decisions easy and stack somebody. That sounds like a fun way to play poker, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you changing the way you play? This isn't the way I expected you to play. I like it, just seemed more like me and less like you.

CJ

[Scuba Chuck]

The resulting answer to these hands is "how to play post flop."

Hand 1. If you complete, and you don't hit the flop hard (meaning 2 pair or better), and because you can't control yourself from putting more chips into the pot if you hit an ace on the flop, then yes, folding is better. If you can somehow find the fortitude to fold on a flop like this, then I prefer a call.

Hand 2: How to play this hand is not as simple as posters are making it, because we're not taking the big picture here. Jurollo knows how to play postflop and can find spots to pickup chips. For others, postflop play is a recipe for disaster (I know, I was the king of giving away chips when I started). If you are someone who finds themselves frequently with 550 to 650 chips by the time you get to L4, then I think limping is better here. If that's not you, then I'm sure you can find your own line on how to play hands you want.

BTW, with regards to limping with TT. Most of the time you're getting paid off when you flop a set. If it's limped around, and you flop all unders, like 9 high, more often than not you can feel confident your overpair is best. And if some guy wants to go to the felt with Q9, and 5 outs to beat you, great. Stack'em!

Scuba

Edit: When I say limping, I mean that no one has raised preflop.

[zambonidrivr]

other players can't flop sets in limped pots? i agree most times your over pair is good (especailly in the $10's). What about higher levels?

JK

[pooh74]

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Unbelievable.. well ok fold for 5 chips if you suck at post flop play I guess.. I never would fold for 5 chips with 94o in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. More attitude for no reason. Grow up.

Look up "reverse implied odds" if you really want to learn something. Add in 5 other tables, and maybe you'll see why it's not at all crystal clear to call, as you seem to think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you retarded? You're getting like 20:1 to complete, and that's not even factoring in implied odds. I complete with ANY TWO.

We've been through this before.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep...

Only way I could see grapefruit being correct here is if he refuses to lay down his hand when he hits the flop at all...

Otherwise, I cant understand bein so weak tight..."reverse implied odds" my foot.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
other players can't flop sets in limped pots?
JK

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats not what he meant...He means some players could/should raise here and be fine playing post flop and it not being a leak.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
other players can't flop sets in limped pots? i agree most times your over pair is good (especailly in the $10's). What about higher levels?

JK

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, on higher levels, people don't go to the felt with Q9 usually. So mathematically, it's less profitable. But on lower levels, this is not the case.

[zambonidrivr]

Agreed! Thanks