very deep stars 10/20 [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

durrrr

10-20-2005, 05:00 PM

opponent is h@llingol; a vry good lag, who is in super-aggro mode (i just won 2 8k+ pots off him in last 30min).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (3 handed)

SB ($9054)
Hero ($14147)
Button ($1990)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, SB raises to $80, Hero calls $60.

Flop: ($160) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $120, Hero raises to $380, SB calls $260.

Turn: ($920) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks,

Hero?

thoughts, results to follow.

stealyourface

10-20-2005, 05:01 PM

check behind, hit your draw and raise the bet that you know is coming on the river.

miss your draw and fold to his river bet.

psyduck

10-20-2005, 05:06 PM

vs. a hyperaggro I think you have enough equity here to bet/3bet.

think about this: if you hit any one of your draws on the river, do you think he'll pay off a pot-sized bet?

Big_Jim

10-20-2005, 05:06 PM

Take your free card. You will explode if he check/raises you here.

While I typically like a raise on the flop here, as you did, stack sizes make it a bit awkward.

What do you do when he 3 bets?

The only good thing that I see about betting the turn is that (if he does just call) you can sell your hand for more on the river, and retain some fold equity.

With a draw this big, though, I would just take my free card, and check/fold unimproved on the river.

durrrr

10-20-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Take your free card. You will explode if he check/raises you here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will? I think it depends how much, checking behind, 1/2 pot, and full pot bets are all viable imo, along w/ either calling a checkraise, or bet/3betting. If just called I think i check behind at least 50% of rivers that dont hit me.

FoxwoodsFiend

10-20-2005, 05:09 PM

If you've been playing at all aggressively, I like a check behind here. This is because villain wouldn't call out of position just hoping to get to a cheap show-down, so the chances are that his flop call indicates a commitment to the hand and trying to weaken that commitment is probably chip-spewing. This, combined with the possibility of a big check-raise, seems to argue against betting.
But if you haven't been getting particularly aggressive or tricky, I would bet pretty big. He might have called hoping you'd slow down, and if so then the fact that you keep betting should scare him enough to get him off any QJ-type hand.
Obviously, a huge factor in answering these short-handed questions is the flow of the action/table image but not knowing much about that, this is about all I can think of.

10-20-2005, 05:16 PM

i dont think this is even really an option, i take the free card any day of the week, because as of right now he probably has you beat (by my experience observing his play). he is allowing you to draw out on him, so make him pay for that move when you hit your hand on the river, you dont hit, you fold.. its simple poker here /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Big_Jim

10-20-2005, 05:26 PM

I haven't played with h@ll.... but as I understand it, he's a pretty big fan of the overbet.

Doesn't that make it pretty tough to call?

Admittedly, if he makes just a pot sized raise, then you are real close to having correct expressed odds.

I suppose that your implied odds are huge, though (especially with your straight), and he might not even be able to put you on a flush draw if you call a big c/r. Of course, this assumes that he has a big hand or follows through on the river.

While I do think that the bet/3-bet line is pretty interesting, I would have to think that he was doing it as a bluff or with a weakish hand pretty damn frequently to consider it.

But yeah.. as FF said... a lot of this depends on the table dynamic.

Big_Jim

10-20-2005, 05:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he probably has you beat

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say it is safe to bet that he has T high beat.

Spladle Master

10-20-2005, 05:53 PM

Flop raise is too small. Pot the turn. Seems to me that the people responding to the thread thus far have forgotten that effective stacks are 450xBB.

Edit: Removed the word "far."

Big_Jim

10-20-2005, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop raise is far too small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Far too small? It's $20 short of a pot sized bet.

How much you like to overbet here?

Spladle Master

10-20-2005, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Far too small?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe that was a bit strong. I should have omitted the word "far" if you wanna nitpick.

[ QUOTE ]
It's $20 short of a pot sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Learn math before saying things like this.

[ QUOTE ]
How much you like to overbet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't. I was thinking a pot raise would be good. Problem is OP's flop raise is $140 short of that. Not a huge deal but I did notice it.

Jason Strasser

10-20-2005, 05:59 PM

No way in hell are you checking. Build this pot up you will have ten high or a very strong hand at showdown. I'm probably betting and welcoming a check raise. This is how you win people stack deep.

-Jason

BobboFitos

10-20-2005, 06:00 PM

TheWorstPlayer

10-20-2005, 06:05 PM

If you bet 1K and he makes it, say, 3.5K are you calling or pushing?

Spladle Master

10-20-2005, 06:09 PM

SpaceAce

10-20-2005, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Learn math before saying things like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no reason to be so snippy with the guy. There's nothing wrong with his math.

Big Jim: this is a raise, not a bet, so you have to include Hero's call of the $120 bet in the size of the pot. So, after the villain bets, the pot is $280 and Hero would be calling $120 + raising $400 (the size of the pot after his call) for a total of $520.

SpaceAce

Spladle Master

10-20-2005, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet 1K and he makes it, say, 3.5K are you calling or pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, man, you're better than this.

(It depends.)

Spladle Master

10-20-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There's no reason to be so snippy with the guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I'm sorry.

[ QUOTE ]
There's nothing wrong with his math.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, something's wrong.

TheWorstPlayer

10-20-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet 1K and he makes it, say, 3.5K are you calling or pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, man, you're better than this.

(It depends.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Um...since I have never come anywhere near playing in, let alone beating, a 10/20 game with ~500bb stacks, I really don't think I have any idea what is a good move here. Since Jason does, and said that he would 'welcome' a check/raise, I was wondering what he would do with it.

Spladle Master

10-20-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet 1K and he makes it, say, 3.5K are you calling or pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, man, you're better than this.

(It depends.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Um...since I have never come anywhere near playing in, let alone beating, a 10/20 game with ~500bb stacks, I really don't think I have any idea what is a good move here. Since Jason does, and said that he would 'welcome' a check/raise, I was wondering what he would do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

'Kay, sorry, I misunderstood. Thought you were asking for a general answer to the question, not a player-specific one (or a player-type that resides at these limits). My bad.

Jason Strasser

10-20-2005, 06:27 PM

If its H@ll and he's in this mode I'm likely calling. I'm also probably going to bet less on the turn (600-700).

By 'welcoming' a check raise, I may be not speaking correctly. I mean that I'm not worried as much about being checked raised off my hand given the stack sizes. Its extremely possible H@ll is in call down mode here, and it's also possible he is giving up. So betting gets him to fold the times he's giving up, and when he's in call down mode its a dream spot because your turn bet is what allows you to plunder him on the river, espeically if you make the straight.

Plus, there are times when you can bet the turn and then brick and outplay him and get him to fold a better hand. It's all situational.

Getting CR is not a happy spot but the benefits of betting outweight it make it the choice despite it sucking sometimes when you may actually have to fold to the CR (like, say he CR AI or something nutty).

TheWorstPlayer

10-20-2005, 06:50 PM

Good post. Thanks.

durrrr

10-21-2005, 12:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No way in hell are you checking. Build this pot up you will have ten high or a very strong hand at showdown. I'm probably betting and welcoming a check raise. This is how you win people stack deep.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

This was similar to my thinking, however this left the question:
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet 1K and he makes it, say, 3.5K are you calling or pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (3 handed)

SB ($9054)
Hero ($14147)
Button ($1990)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, SB raises to $80, Hero calls $60.

Flop: ($160) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $120, Hero raises to $380, SB calls $260.

Turn: ($920) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $820, SB raises to $2280,

HERO?
pot = 5500, he has 6300 behind

ahnuld

10-21-2005, 01:06 AM

If you call turn and hit a straight or flush on river, will you get paid off? If the answer is no, I like a push. If yes, hell lead into you for 3-5k on any river card, then call and try to hit.

mgsimpleton

10-21-2005, 01:16 AM

well he's certainly representing an overpair, that's for sure.

so what questions remain:

will he fold it if you push?
is it possible he actually has nothing and thus you have high folding equity?

if the asnwers to these questions are strongly no then just call. there's no way you don't stack him if you hit. he can't put you on a draw given your call of his huge raise, so he will pushthe riv whether he has the overpair or he is b luffing, imo. i would just call here.

FoxwoodsFiend

10-21-2005, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you call turn and hit a straight or flush on river, will you get paid off? If the answer is no, I like a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing here is borderline suicidal.

Dr. Strangelove

10-21-2005, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you call turn and hit a straight or flush on river, will you get paid off? If the answer is no, I like a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing here is borderline suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, this checkraise seems a bit pansified, I would definitely checkraise more with a set with these stacks. If he has an over pair or J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif X /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif three betting looks like the move, provided he's folding these holdings.

durrrr

10-21-2005, 02:44 AM

he isnt representing an overpair, he has 2p+, air, or a monster draw. If he has an overpair this riase is a bluff of sorts(i.e. he isnt value betting the river).

flawless_victory

10-21-2005, 02:49 AM

if i bet the turn, im pushing over that raise...
the size of his raise, he either has the nuts, or doesnt want to commit himself... i say move in... if he has JJJ/999 and calls it wont be the end of the world...
show him youre ready and willing and have some decent equity as well.

Dr. Strangelove

10-21-2005, 03:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
he isnt representing an overpair, he has 2p+, air, or a monster draw. If he has an overpair this riase is a bluff of sorts(i.e. he isnt value betting the river).

[/ QUOTE ]

I know he's representing a hand stronger than an overpair, but I could see an overpair checkraising here after coming to the conclusion that he is ahead of your hand range, thinking you will fold a lot of hands with outs that will only put money in on the river if they improve, including some draws that would be difficult to play against on the river.

Putting the commitment decision on you while planning to not put another penny in the pot if reraised.

augie00

10-21-2005, 03:37 AM

Honestly, he could have anything right here, but most likely a good hand. And I think you should just call the reraise and get the rest in on the river when you improve. You won't win this hand unless you improve, cause it's pretty obvious now that he has a hand he's prolly not going to fold.

kagame

10-21-2005, 04:23 AM

if by suicide you mean a great experience not to be missed!

hitting your draw close to half the time and having any sort of fold equity whatsoever makes this a correct push

the only question is whether we make more money by hitting and getting paid off almost always and always fold when we miss, just taking the best case scenario of the flip

show of hands, how many of you guys even know the odds for a oesf draw after the turn? ;-)

Jason Strasser

10-21-2005, 04:27 AM

Uhhh... Call?

Also everyone assuming this means Hall wants to show down is very wrong. His CR here does not mean he has a hand necessarily. So I call because I have plenty of outs and although im lacky immediate odds I have sufficient implied odds. I also can win the pot sometimes when I dont improve.

-Jason

10-21-2005, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Uhhh... Call?

Also everyone assuming this means Hall wants to show down is very wrong. His CR here does not mean he has a hand necessarily. So I call because I have plenty of outs and although im lacky immediate odds I have sufficient implied odds. I also can win the pot sometimes when I dont improve.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean you're pushing any river if he checks?

10-21-2005, 04:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if by suicide you mean a great experience not to be missed!

hitting your draw close to half the time and having any sort of fold equity whatsoever makes this a correct push

the only question is whether we make more money by hitting and getting paid off almost always and always fold when we miss, just taking the best case scenario of the flip

show of hands, how many of you guys even know the odds for a oesf draw after the turn? ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

15 cards improve us. There are 46 unknown cards in the deck. We make this about 1/3 of the time. That's not very impressive, and significantly less than half the time.

Big_Jim

10-21-2005, 05:21 AM

Oops. I'm a dumbass

Feel free to flame me for retarded comments, I need to learn.

Big_Jim

10-21-2005, 05:24 AM

Thanks for defending me, but I should know better.

Jason Strasser

10-21-2005, 06:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean you're pushing any river if he checks?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Imperial

10-21-2005, 09:59 AM

durrrr, you played it perfectly so far! Read the answers from Jason Strasser about how to end the hand.

fsuplayer

10-21-2005, 10:16 AM

durrr- looks good so far. now stop messing around and spike on this guy.

i am predicting a river Kx, check, check, and durr scoops. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

xorbie

10-21-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
durrr- looks good so far. now stop messing around and spike on this guy.

i am predicting a river Kx, check, check, and durr scoops. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Villains 57/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is no good.

durrrr

10-22-2005, 12:46 PM

what would you advocate doing if i had JJ (or 99 w/e)?

fsuplayer

10-22-2005, 12:58 PM

against this guy, i am pushing everytime with a set here.

from everyone's descriptions of him, he could easily have some sort of two way draw which he will call a push with. and if he folds a weird onepair hand, so be it.

durrrr

10-22-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
against this guy, i am pushing everytime with a set here.

from everyone's descriptions of him, he could easily have some sort of two way draw which he will call a push with. and if he folds a weird onepair hand, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree... but don't you think he knows this? In other words i think my only chance to win the pot unimproved is right here- because any hand which i would value bet on the river i would push on the turn. IMO even if i had AJ or something and thought it was good i would push the turn- becuase if he is bluffing he definitely has a lot of outs. I think if i call not 1c more goes into the pot from me unless i hit, or a card completing another draw hits(which there are a lot of).

fsuplayer

10-22-2005, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against this guy, i am pushing everytime with a set here.

from everyone's descriptions of him, he could easily have some sort of two way draw which he will call a push with. and if he folds a weird onepair hand, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree... but don't you think he knows this? In other words i think my only chance to win the pot unimproved is right here- because any hand which i would value bet on the river i would push on the turn. IMO even if i had AJ or something and thought it was good i would push the turn- becuase if he is bluffing he definitely has a lot of outs. I think if i call not 1c more goes into the pot from me unless i hit, or a card completing another draw hits(which there are a lot of).

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure if you were disagreeing with a point in my post or not, but i agree with all the above.

mgsimpleton

10-22-2005, 02:48 PM

the hting that doesn't make sense about this logic is given how drawy the board is, for you to call on the turn and push a completed draw A)forfeits the money when he pushes unimproved on his missed draw of 7 high or whatever and B) if he completes his draw he might realize exactly what you've said about turn pushing v calling and check his completed draw, letting you bluff it. given how little we know about his hand right now and how wide his range is, i think it is imprudent to use this as your line if he knows what you assume he knows about what a turn call implies.

durrrr

10-22-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the hting that doesn't make sense about this logic is given how drawy the board is, for you to call on the turn and push a completed draw A)forfeits the money when he pushes unimproved on his missed draw of 7 high or whatever and B) if he completes his draw he might realize exactly what you've said about turn pushing v calling and check his completed draw, letting you bluff it. given how little we know about his hand right now and how wide his range is, i think it is imprudent to use this as your line if he knows what you assume he knows about what a turn call implies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, basically im in an awful spot if i call IMO. Which is why i wish i pushd (i calld and missed like a donkey)

He pushed the river (it was a blank not sure what i'll post later no time now).