i'm pretty proud of this one....

[RyGreen18]

Been playing at this table for several hours and have a pretty solid TAG image. UTG is a pretty good player (31/19/2.8 over 200 hands), isn't too creative on the later streets. The CCer behind me is pretty loose (41/12/1.5) and plays very straightforward postflop. Any thought are appreciated.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB folds, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, UTG calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

[kidcolin]

What about the small blind? I probably would've folded the flop, as you're outs are ugly. Maybe that's too weak.

I don't like the big street play much at all. Would you've been pretty proud if he called? Just doesn't seem like an +EV play to me.

[RyGreen18]

the pot was laying 15-1 on the river. The river bluff only has work less than 10% of the time to be +EV.

The turn c/r is the most questionable part of this hand IMO

[RyGreen18]

bump

[kidcolin]

[ QUOTE ]
the pot was laying 15-1 on the river. The river bluff only has work less than 10% of the time to be +EV.

The turn c/r is the most questionable part of this hand IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that after the turn c/r you're pretty much comitted to follow through on the river. It's the whole turn/river combo I dislike, especially after UTG called CO's bet.

And seriously what's going on in that avatar?

[sthief09]

your turn raise is disgusting

[IGMorton]

ok.. i'll bite.

i admire the courage to bluff at a dangerous looking board because your opponent only needs to fold a small percentage of the time for it to be profitable. if you do this a lot, you will get paid big when you have monsters.

so, lemme ask you:

how many hands does someone raise UTG that dont have you beat? AK - AT, A9s, A8s, KJ, KTs, and any pocket pair above 55 are all probable openers for your opponent, which you loose to.

the only other hand i can see most guys open with is is KQ, which you only tie! Heck, you even loose to KQ diamonds.

how many of the hands you are behind does he fold? you need him to fold an awfull lot.

[IGMorton]

jees, remind me to never ask you to critique my play /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kidcolin]

[ QUOTE ]
jees, remind me to never ask you to critique my play /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

He's right though. I think if you're going to take a stab at this, just bet the turn. By c/r'ing the turn, you're either hoping CO and UTG both have donkey dick, or they both have marginal holdings and will both succumb to pressure in this large pot, or a combination of the two. Once it's guaranteed to be 3-way in a big pot, making fancy plays with air is a pretty bad idea.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
jees, remind me to never ask you to critique my play /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]



overconfidence costs money. notice how much I hate arrogant people like kurosh. this guy got lucky and he needs to realize that he didn't make a good play. he did something completely retarded and got lucky. if he doesn't realize it, then he's just another one of those idiots you see at live tables who do all kinds of stupid [censored] and think they're experts

[brazilio]

I guess this is deeper than most donkeys think, but it's assumed that when a player checkraises/raises into a field he's always doing it for value, when does it become profitable to exploit that knowledge when it's a big multiway pot? You'd need to have played with these players such a long time you know their tendencies I guess, and maybe that's just too deep to hope that they both drop their hands.

[sthief09]

there's no need to sugarcoat it. it's all about the tough love

[kurosh]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[sthief09]

actually my hatred for is fading, but it used to be a really strong hatred

Nice hand. Typically I bet the turn and then c/r the river here but your line is fine against many donks at this level. Might even bet the flop for value, btw.

If there was no cap preflop I'd go 5 bets. Good equity edge.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
your turn raise is disgusting

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice hand. Typically I bet the turn and then c/r the river here but your line is fine against many donks at this level. Might even bet the flop for value, btw.

If there was no cap preflop I'd go 5 bets. Good equity edge.

[/ QUOTE ]


you get the gimmick account approval from me

[IGMorton]

lol, was thinking the same thing /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bank]

spew-tastic

[Monty Cantsin]

This is not a good spot for a turn semi-bluff. You have two guys who have both indicated some degree of love for their hands - one of them called 3 bets cold pre-flop, one of them raised UTG, called a cap, and called the flop and turn. To make matters worse, your raise comes after UTG has called the turn bet, so instead of facing him with two cold and maybe pushing him out and possibly cleaning up pair outs, it traps him for multiple bets. You're just charging yourself to draw here.

I also don't like the flop call. What are you putting your opponents on? What are you hoping to hit on the turn, a draw?

Come to think of it, I don't much like 3-betting a solid UTG raiser with QK.

And I hate that there's no read on the pre-flop capper.

This is a good hand for you to post, because of the difference between your perception and the crrrrritics. That's always where I learn the most.

/mc

[RyGreen18]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess this is deeper than most donkeys think, but it's assumed that when a player checkraises/raises into a field he's always doing it for value, when does it become profitable to exploit that knowledge when it's a big multiway pot? You'd need to have played with these players such a long time you know their tendencies I guess, and maybe that's just too deep to hope that they both drop their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, this is pretty much the logic i was using on this hand. what hand does the button cold-call 3 with preflop and then bet the turn when everyone checks to him? probably a middle PP most of the time. the player to my right c/c on the turn is a draw most of the time, a hand like AK, AQ or KQ is most likely. i had played with these guys for several hours and had a pretty good read on them, i knew them to be capable of folding enough (in addition to the times i made the straight) to make this play +ev. obviously, its not a line that i take very often, and it requires a specific read on the players involved, the board, my own table image and the action. this was a situation where after the flop, no one seemed to like their hand very much. the river bet seemed like a no brainer, if i push off AK, AQ or KQ one out of 14 times this is a profitable bet. the flop call was probably the worst play of the hand, and looking back at it after a conversation w/ tongni, its clear that i should have folded, even in such a big pot. im not advocating making this play very often, but it the correct situation it could work, as this line was the only one that would give me a chance to win this huge pot.