Not using a HUD

[IGMorton]

Does anyone here play at 5/10 and above without a HU display?

I have not used one at all at 5/10. I've been playing at a couple small sites which are not supported by PT. At these sites there are frequently only a few tables of 6 max at 5/10 or 10/20. Obviously, i cannot excercise good game selection. But, knowing the regulars well allows me to play optimally for the table conditions when a couple fish sit down at the table.

Because there are only a few running games, i'm able to see if someone is multitabling or not at that site. If someone isn't multitabling and i see his actions are usually very quick at the table, i supplement my read with the miniscule differences in time delay of his actions. I think it tells me a lot that i might miss if i were paying attention to his stats.

Granted, this assumes he isn't playing on other sites as well. Maybee it's only applicable at the small sites with primarilly casino player traffic (non-pros who wouldn't be multitabling across many sites).

thoughts?

[kahntrutahn]

I refuse to work at those places for that reason... I'm just too dependant on stat reads when playing 6 or more tables.

However, I think you have a good approach towards what you are doing/where you are playing, so rock on /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Emperor]

Many posters have said that one of the best ways to improve your HUSH game is to turn off the HUD, and take excellent notes.

[JohnnyHumongous]

I don't...

I play 4 tables of 10/20 or 20/40.

[IGMorton]

lately i've been playing only 2 tables. if the 10/20 game running at my favorite site has unknown short stacked players, or not many of the regulars, i'll play it and 1 other 5/10 table.

i'm primarilly interested in improving my reads right now so i can learn 10/20. The small sites might be better for this, where i can learn how those regular players think.

[IGMorton]

I took some advice from Arkady a while back in a noobish post i made about PT stats use. He recommended minimal usage of PT stats.

[kahntrutahn]

[ QUOTE ]
lately i've been playing only 2 tables.... i'm primarilly interested in improving my reads right now so i can learn 10/20. The small sites might be better for this, where i can learn how those regular players think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I think you have a good plan here... even moreso if you are only 2 tabling. It will allow you the time to focus intently on your opposition... I am guilty of not doing this often enough. I sit down to make money, I know broadly what my capability is, I'm over 1 std dev in the winners circle and I can pull that off 6 tabling, so since I'm money oriented right now, I do what works... I think when the bankroll is huge, the house and car are paid off, I'll be taking your approach at a few different places and really "working on my game."

Good luck to you, let the community know how it turns out /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Subfallen]

Diablo doesn't use them. On an infinitely lesser note, I don't use them and am winning 3BB/100 over my last 40k hands of 10/20.

[IGMorton]

wow.

interested in coaching?

[kahntrutahn]

Also, I wanted to add, as I am guilty of doing this on more than one prolonged stretch of hands, relying too much on stat reads can be quite detrimental. Sometimes I get so caught up in playing the stats, that that is all I pay attention to. I stop making meaningful notes, stop seeing patterns right in front of my face, basically just shut down and play the numbers. Granted that may be because I'm pumping out 500+ hands an hour when I play, but I know it has cost me a significant amount of money. So in a way, relying on stats negatively impacts my winrate because it detracts from my skill advancement and mental awareness... yes... a few more months of grinding 60k hands a month and then I'll roll back and really concentrate on my game. I'd really like to be a 2.5+ winner /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Victor]

i didnt use a hud for 100k 5/10 hands and ran at 2. i use a hud at 10/20 and suck so whatever.

[kidcolin]

I've never used them ever. I've just begun flirting with the idea, but I really feel I'd be less observant if I use stats.

Oh.. I two table 3/6 and 5/10 at party. I played 5/10 mostly, then moved to the west coast using mostly my bankroll. I built it back up, jumped to 5/10 too early and my game was rusty, so I dropped to 3/6. Beat it for 5 BB/100 over 13K (*cough* sample size, I know) and came back to 5/10 when my game was sharp. I'm liking my results thus far.

If I ever decide to go to 3 or 4 tables, I think it'd be hard not to take advantage of datamining/HUDs.

[Jeff W]

Using a HUD(and PT Notes generator before that) has made me a worse player.

[kidcolin]

I actually just started using PT about 20K hands ago.. what's this auto notes jargon? I just use it to keep track of what I'm doing.

[kiddo]

How many tables u play? It makes no sense to play 4 tables 6max and not use them, does it?

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Using a HUD(and PT Notes generator before that) has made me a worse player.

[/ QUOTE ]

why am I seeing so much of this?

[ChicagoTroy]

It happenned to me, too. I think it has to do with seeing "bad" stats and believing they're full of crap all the time, when in fact one doesn't have to get that far out of line to have laggy stats.

In my case I started calling down more or raising weakish hands.

[wackjob]

I play 4 tables usually, 10/20 & 5/10 both and have never used a HUD. I am thinking of getting one for some time now, however.

[RunDownHouse]

I didn't use one for a long time. Now I mine and use one and can't imagine going back, ever. Its all in how you use it, and I find I rarely consult it for postflop play. Only when I see something truly nuts do I take it into consideration postflop. On the other hand, stuff that sticks out that much from the stats is pretty apparent at the table in a short time.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
How many tables u play? It makes no sense to play 4 tables 6max and not use them, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play 3-4 tables 5-max. I don't if I make any sense. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

To whoever asked about coaching, maybe someday...I'm still experimenting with my game a lot as it is now.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
and I find I rarely consult it for postflop play

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is important, use the stats more for preflop and not for postflop, I know Ive made a few mistakes using stats post flop, notes are better for post flop

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
Many posters have said that one of the best ways to improve your HUSH game is to turn off the HUD, and take excellent notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. A HUD is not useful to me playing 4 handed or less, which is my prefered number of players. 6 or more its all good in my book.

I can't believe the responses in this thread.

How can extra information possibly be bad??

Just like in poker, you have choices. If you don't feel you have enough hands on someone, you can always choose to avoid using stats for that person, but don't pass up an opportunity to use a tool that is worth its weight in gold. HUDs are the best thing that's ever happened to online poker.

If you keep making wrong decisions or reads based on limited sample sizes it's your fault. If you make wrong decisions on large sample sizes, it's bad luck.

Bottom line.....If you suck at using a HUD, don't blame the HUD, blame yourself.

[IGMorton]

i haven't been using HUD for two reasons that apply to my immediate short term situation:

1. i really need to work on my reads. once i have learned to understand how other decent players think (besides the average 26/18 2+2 guy)... i'll start using them.

2. i am playing at some small sites which are not supported by PT. i play here because the competetion is very soft... hence a good way to get my feet wet in 10/20.

[w_alloy]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe the responses in this thread.

How can extra information possibly be bad??

Just like in poker, you have choices. If you don't feel you have enough hands on someone, you can always choose to avoid using stats for that person, but don't pass up an opportunity to use a tool that is worth its weight in gold. HUDs are the best thing that's ever happened to online poker.

If you keep making wrong decisions or reads based on limited sample sizes it's your fault. If you make wrong decisions on large sample sizes, it's bad luck.

Bottom line.....If you suck at using a HUD, don't blame the HUD, blame yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just about to post something very similiar to the before I saw this post. Maybe mine woulda been a bit less harsh /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[kidcolin]

I don't think anyone's blaming HUDs. I doubt anyone here thinks that because they choose not to use them they suck.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Using a HUD(and PT Notes generator before that) has made me a a [censored] ton of money.

[/ QUOTE ]


fyp

[sthief09]

datamining + HUDs make me ~$100/hr

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Using a HUD(and PT Notes generator before that) has made me a worse player.

[/ QUOTE ]

why am I seeing so much of this?

[/ QUOTE ]


it's probably true and it's probably why I never seem to win when I play live. I'm so so so bad at making specific player reads. but I'd rather 8 table and make a lot more

[kidcolin]

Also there's the concern of whether they're against T & C at some sites. Might not be worth the risk in some people's opinion. I'm sure it's more of an old dog new tricks scenario, though.

Seriously though, read everyone's post carefully.. I don't think one person comes off saying that HUD's are bad... just that they prefer not to use them. Just chillll, man.

[Trix]

In how many tables of what game ?

Think you are overestimating it alot..

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
In how many tables of what game ?

Think you are overestimating it alot..

[/ QUOTE ]


8 tables, 20 and 30

before doing any math, I'd guess they improve my winrate by around .5 bb/100. at 640 hands/hr that's 3.2 BB, or $120-$180/hr. so even a .3 bb/100 improvement that's like $100/hr

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe mine woulda been a bit less harsh /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Just chillll, man.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kidcolin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In how many tables of what game ?

Think you are overestimating it alot..

[/ QUOTE ]


8 tables, 20 and 30

before doing any math, I'd guess they improve my winrate by around .5 bb/100. at 640 hands/hr that's 3.2 BB, or $120-$180/hr. so even a .3 bb/100 improvement that's like $100/hr

[/ QUOTE ]

Marry me.

[ QUOTE ]
i haven't been using HUD for two reasons that apply to my immediate short term situation:

1. i really need to work on my reads. once i have learned to understand how other decent players think (besides the average 26/18 2+2 guy)... i'll start using them.

2. i am playing at some small sites which are not supported by PT. i play here because the competetion is very soft... hence a good way to get my feet wet in 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was definitely not directing any of my comments towards you or anyone who has a legitimate reason for not using/being able to use them. Hope you didn't take it the wrong way.

The posters who said they lose because they use HUDs make no sense to me. Extra info is very productive if used correctly and destructive if used incorrectly. Since we're all logical thinking 2+2ers/winning players, I would assume we can all use the information pretty well. If we lose a hand because a solid read backfired, that's just plain old bad luck.

[sthief09]

if that's sarcasm, suck my balls. if that's geniune, I do

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
if that's genuine, suck my balls. if that's geniune, I do

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Marry me.

[/ QUOTE ]
if that's sarcasm, suck my balls. if that's geniune, I do

[/ QUOTE ]
Can't it be both....I mean if he marries you, you won't let him do that? Then he can have his cak and eat it too.

Errr...I mean...cake.

[kidcolin]

most definitely sincere. I'll prepare the invitations. Guess I'm moving back to Massachussetts for the ceremonies.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In how many tables of what game ?

Think you are overestimating it alot..

[/ QUOTE ]


8 tables, 20 and 30

before doing any math, I'd guess they improve my winrate by around .5 bb/100. at 640 hands/hr that's 3.2 BB, or $120-$180/hr. so even a .3 bb/100 improvement that's like $100/hr

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you play more hours? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[wackjob]

Even when 4-tabling I still take notes and I am able to utilize reads. I only use stats on players I have at least 500 hands on, and by then I usually have a page of notes anyways. I still think about using a HUD just for the AF, but I'm a bit lazy in looking for and downloading and learning to use one. 4-tabling my last 50K 5/10 were 2.05bb/100, last 50K 10/20 were 1.20bb/100.

[elmo]

what is your MTT ratio that lets you get 640 hands an hour 8-tabling? I need a MTT ratio of around 8.7 to get 660 hands/hr. Are you playing all short?

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
what is your MTT ratio that lets you get 640 hands an hour 8-tabling? I need a MTT ratio of around 8.7 to get 660 hands/hr. Are you playing all short?

[/ QUOTE ]

I get 478 hands/hour with an MT ratio of 4.8 and AP=6.3

MT Ratio=6.4 should do the trick.