To what extent am I spewing here?

[Stealthy]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets

<font color="black"> I fire at the end as it is the only way to win the pot now.

This is a good example of a lot of hands today. Ones like this flush draw and lot with unimproved big aces. A typical AK hand is me in EP I raise get 1 caller, I miss, I bet, he calls, turn is blank, I bet again hoping he releases to the bigger bet. He calls. I then give up on the river (or occasionaly fire a last desperate bet if the board was draw heavy and nothing could have hit) and get shown bottom pair that he could not fold.

Now clearly this is what we want largely as we get paid off when we do hit, but we usually miss. But at times I lost as much in a single hand bluffing as I would have won if an ace had hit! <font color="black"> </font>

So what is a standard line for unimproved AK. By natural selection down here at the micros we are more often than not getting called by the weak high VP$IP players. But if we bet the flop and get called do we really have to give up and check fold. Cause sure as eggs are eggs if you check they will take that as a written invitation to bet and we are done.

Somebody give me a line to use here. This was my first day back playing limit for an age and I had AK 8 times and won once with them dumping 20BB with that hand alone. Not all by firing with nothing as I lost 2 big pots to rivered gutters.

Is the lesson I need to learn today that I should NEVER bluff the river as they are not going to be folding anything I can beat? Although I did take 3 hands I think down that way, clearly to missed draws.

Oh yeah in the posted hand he had K4 off and of course called.

So how do I get out cheap without playing completely weak/tight?</font>

[MrWookie47]

Check and fold. Sure, betting is your only way to win the pot, but you don't have to win every pot in poker. You can't. You won't fold him often enough on this river for it to be profitable.

Edit: Basically, you're hoping for him to have a busted draw, in which case you'll win when he checks behind. You're not folding a pair if he hasn't folded yet.

[cold_cash]

You're going to win more by checking and calling than by betting.

Check folding is still probably the best choice 99% of the time though.

[sean c]

I would have check/called the turn.

[deception5]

On the river you are ahead of any draw. Nearly anyone that calls your river bet has you beaten (there are of course exceptions). This is also true for the AK hand you referenced. Typical line for AK is bet-bet-check/call (to induce a bluff).

This is very dependant on the texture of the board. On this hand I will likely check/fold on the river. You may think it's weak, but think about what hands could legitimately call to the river here - any 2 broadways (which would have a straight or pair on the river), a flush draw - but you already have 2 diamonds so this is less likely, a K/J/2, or a worse ace. You're not up against a worse ace very often here - especially since 2 of them hit the board. So you're not losing very much by check/folding especially since most opponents will check behind hands you beat. The pot is not large enough and the likelyhood you are ahead is not enough to warrant calling a river bet here as your opponent has to be bluffing more than 20% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Cause sure as eggs are eggs if you check they will take that as a written invitation to bet and we are done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider check/raising some of your strong hands if this happens often.

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody give me a line to use here. This was my first day back playing limit for an age and I had AK 8 times and won once with them dumping 20BB with that hand alone. Not all by firing with nothing as I lost 2 big pots to rivered gutters.

Is the lesson I need to learn today that I should NEVER bluff the river as they are not going to be folding anything I can beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger lesson you need to learn is that 8 hands is nothing...

[Stealthy]

[ QUOTE ]

The bigger lesson you need to learn is that 8 hands is nothing...

[/ QUOTE ]

No arguments here for that!

Just frustration I guess. I am a limit player at heart and studied my arse off before reloading today and just wanted to get off to a decent start. Down 40BB so far. I have spewed a little largely to me trying to find my feet but maybe only 10 - 15BB of spewedge I reckon.

Oh well, back to the grind.

[TheHammer24]

Uber-Spew.

You win the pot when the hands that fold to your bluff check behind you. Do you see why checking is correct?

[Stealthy]

Yes I do but I hate the thought of another non-paired drawing hand getting offered the pot on a plate when I check fold. Which makes check call sometimes optional whereby I lose the same anyway.

So yep, better to check call than bet.

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]

Is the lesson I need to learn today that I should NEVER bluff the river as they are not going to be folding anything I can beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're going to bluff the river, do it as a checkraise against someone that can make that kind of fold. IOW not this guy.