10/20 - A9s cold calling

[Nietzsche]

UTG is 60/30/1.7, goes to showdown a lot.
MP is 65/10/1.

Two questions.
1) Is this hand two weak to cold call preflop even against donks like these?
2) Does the turn suck against a player like this?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

[Stefan_K]

i dont like it

preflop i 3bet if i play

and i dont think i would fold toppair against
[ QUOTE ]
60/30/1.7, goes to showdown a lot

[/ QUOTE ]
that is quite aggr for me

[marsvolta619]

Preflop is ok. It's good to mix-up ccing and 3-betting here. If villain goes to showdown so often, I'm calling down unless a 9 comes. If he's bluffing or going agro with TT-KK, let him have at it. You're just gonna get 3-bet in marginal spots like this where you may fold the winner.

[27offsooot]

PF: If there wasn't the cc, three bet. I don't mind the cold-call here actually.
Flop: I raise the flop b/c MP has already called one bet, there's no guarantee UTG will bet the turn into three people. I suppose seeing if MP raises the turn bet has it's advantages.

Turn: Bad. I would never fold TP against this opponent. Call the turn three bet. I would prefer raising the flop though and letting him call down or three betting u and then u can call down or bet the turn and call his c/r.

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like it

preflop i 3bet if i play

and i dont think i would fold toppair against
[ QUOTE ]
60/30/1.7, goes to showdown a lot

[/ QUOTE ]
that is quite aggr for me

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised how aggro this really was. From watching his play later in the session betting and raising almost like maniac I'm surprised this number isn't higher.

Really bad laydown judging from his play the rest of the session.

[Stefan_K]

[ QUOTE ]
PF: If there wasn't the cc, three bet. I don't mind the cold-call here actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't you think that we've got equety from both the 30pfr and the vpip60 coldcaller to rais. I don't think that 60vpip guy have much of a hand so force him to put a third bet would be good i think?

[Stefan_K]

generally both high vpip and high went to sd affects the aggr very much. very often more than you first assume

[IGMorton]

If UTG raised, MP and CO called, i usuall cold call on the button or from SB with A9s, A8s, as well as KTs. With such a large prelop pot, it's unlikely i can get a guy in the BB with a better kicker like AJ to fold by 3-betting.

my kicker might only be good half the time an A or K falls. Since i won't have any fold equity on the flop, i'm cold calling to encourage more to come along for the flush value. is this reasoning wrong?

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF: If there wasn't the cc, three bet. I don't mind the cold-call here actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't you think that we've got equety from both the 30pfr and the vpip60 coldcaller to rais. I don't think that 60vpip guy have much of a hand so force him to put a third bet would be good i think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind a three bet either. I think arguments can be made for both here. You do have an equity advantage over the first two, but i would like to encourage the blinds to tag along with worse aces and other hands that may pad the pot should u flop a draw. You will also be able to raise them off of good flops if UTG auto bets the flop. I guess it depends on the blinds as well. If they're good, it might be best to three bet and take this three way. If u didn't have the ccer, i think that a three bet is much easier b/c A high will have much greater showdown value.

[Nietzsche]

I agree. I 3-bet this preflop if UTG raises and MP folds.

[RyGreen18]

i 3bet this against these opponents. Remember, you have the button.

On the flop, I try to mix up raising the flop and the turn. But the reason you are waiting til the turn is because you are ahead a lot of the time and are getting value from it. I could even see capping this against certain opponents, is anyone else making this play? If you are consistantly folding to a 3-bet here you are missing a lot of pots. He could be 3betting a pair and a flush draw like A/images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, an overaggressive PP. Also, what is your table image right now? How much respect does this guy give your turn raise? My default play is to call down after he 3bets.

[joker122]

like stefan said, AF are misleading if you ignore vp$ip. with a vip of 60% he's seeing alot of flops with garbage hands so he can't be aggressive with those, and that decreases the AF. if you did an experiment and only played AA-TT for a few hours you could look at you AF for that span and it would be something like 7 or 8 probably.

[Jeff W]

Pre flop is fine. It's between 3-betting and cold calling.

I'd wait till the river to raise. I would never fold this hand.

[Danenania]

Hey Jeff, I agree with either waiting til the river to raise or raising on the flop, but a flop raise seems a bit better to me because a.) BB could have many 4-5 out hands and b.) I think it will often induce UTG to give extra action with a worse hand. If the flop were a little drier I think I'd like waiting better. Also this is secondary, or I guess tertiary, but I suppose we lose a bit less when behind a big hand by raising the flop versus the river. Thoughts on those points?

By the way, to the op: I'd 3-bet PF almost always unless the blinds were extremely loose.