How straightforward is too straightforward - 2 hands

[Lash]

Read on all opponents in both examples below is passive w/ loose tendencies…

Party Poker Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets?</font>,

Party Poker Hold'em (6 max, 3 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets?</font>,

My dilemma in both of the above is… should I give a free card vs. unsophisticated opponents who are loose passive? Especially given the Ace scare card and med. Pot size in the first example, and what about the tiny pot size and paired board in the 2nd example?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[brazilio]

bet both, preflop aggression and then checking the flop with monsters is crap.

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
bet both, preflop aggression and then checking the flop with monsters is crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this tendency is fishy at best and is complete amateur hour. Three cards are already out on the board, if people are interested in the hand then they will pay you off fully, and giving them a 4th card is probably not going to keep anyone around who wasn't already staying. And for anyone halfway observant, checking the flop after raising preflop is terribly suspicious, especially if you start raising on later streets.

[mute]

Straightforward poker = $$$.

Have you ever had KQ on these flops and cursed them for not folding their garbage pair or backdoor straight draw even though you've clearly indicated you have a strong hand?

Also some ppl aren't complete morons, and do realize, that when a pfr, who usually bets the flop, all of a sudden checks, it might mean strength not weakness.

Hand 2 in particular would be bad to check since you are not just giving a free card to let them make a secondbest hand, but actually giving them a chance to draw out on you for free.

They love to call. Let them.

[Lash]

Thanks for the responses… and I do agree that straightforward poker is generally what makes solid players the most money.

I skimmed over the TOP chapter on slowplaying and realize neither hand qualifies. I see now that both examples should be bet, at least as a standard. It’s funny how you can start second guessing fundamentals that you thought you had a strong grasp of.

The catalyst for me in this case was being results oriented in a 6 max session a week or so ago. I was dealt AA pf two out of three hands. One or two callers both times and I lead bet both times on AKx board and get zero action. Got me thinking about slowplaying sets / trips in general and for the wrong reasons.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
bet both, preflop aggression and then checking the flop with monsters is crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Intent]

I often find myself tempted to slowplay those type of hands, because who doesn't want some action on a good hand? But I consider betting out is better for the reasons listed, and for the metagame. I have personally made money off those enjoyable players who only bet strongly when they are bluffing, and check/call so they can checkraise the river when they have a hand. If any of your opponents are the least bit observant, they'll pick up on what you're doing pretty fast.

[brazilio]

Party Poker 2/4 6-max (5-handed)

Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif

3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises</font>, Hero calls

Flop 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

Turn 10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

River 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

SB has 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and wins 7 dollars.

No more discussion needed.

In general, I almost never slow play unless someone has pushed back at me preflop. I continuation bet so often on the flop I might as well bet when I really have a hand (semi-quoting someone I heard on 2+2 at one point).

If they push back on the flop, then I start thinking about getting tricky on the turn. They've clearly hit something and I can probably try for a turn donk with the intent of 3-betting.

[Lash]

LOL, that's a great example of getting a point across through using extremes. And I see your point.

Not to get picky though, but according to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker... didn't the SB play his hand perfectly? Especially if he knew you would not call at any point post flop? What a stud!

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL, that's a great example of getting a point across through using extremes. And I see your point.

Not to get picky though, but according to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker... didn't the SB play his hand perfectly? Especially if he knew you would not call at any point post flop? What a stud!

[/ QUOTE ]

How could he know? His opponent may have flopped open-ended and would have paid all the way to draw... or opponent may have 33 and also would call down.

[mute]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL, that's a great example of getting a point across through using extremes. And I see your point.

Not to get picky though, but according to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker... didn't the SB play his hand perfectly? Especially if he knew you would not call at any point post flop? What a stud!

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a gut feeling, but I think brazilio would have spewed chips all over the place if SB hadn't checked the flop (I know I would have /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 6-max (5-handed)

Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif

3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises</font>, Hero calls

Flop 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

Turn 10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

River 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

SB has 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and wins 7 dollars.

No more discussion needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's not getting any money out of you anyways....was that tommy angelo?

[Lash]

Yeah, you guys make good points, and my understanding of the FTOP is not that great...

I'm just saying that in some spots, in a certain context... the sb in the quad 8's hand has to be right according to the FTOP right? Maybe in context and according to brazilios tendencies, the SB misplayed according to the FTOP on the flp and turn.

But against a generally tight player who over defends pf but gives up post, and *certain other types, the sb played his quads perfectly.

*"certain other types" may be someone who would never continue when led into on the flop or turn, but may bet when checked to since he views it as a profitable bluff bet, not a profitable bluff / semi bluff raise or drawing scenario

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 6-max (5-handed)

Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif

3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises</font>, Hero calls

Flop 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

Turn 10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

River 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, Hero checks

SB has 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and wins 7 dollars.

No more discussion needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's not getting any money out of you anyways....was that tommy angelo?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that reasoning with trying to let me catch up, but not betting the river is atrocious. He has no idea what hand I have, other than I felt it was an ok defense against an SB steal. While it's true he wasn't getting any money out of me, and probably only 1BB on the river even if my gutshot hits, he's missing out on a ton of money. He's just some semidonk I play with frequently in shorthanded shorthanded tables, normal party shorthanded player who can't find a fold.