View Full Version : 50/100 unraised pot, little help probably boring
captZEEbo1
10-20-2005, 12:25 PM
Hero in SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif
4 handed
utg limps ($5000), button limps($16000), Hero completes ($15900), BB checks ($1100)
Flop: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (pot $400)
Hero leads $250, BB folds, UTG makes it $500, Button cc's $500, I call $250
9/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (pot $1900)
Hero check, UTG chk, Button bet 1900, Hero call, UTG folds
9/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (pot $5700)
Hero check, Button bet $5700, Hero folds
This just feels awful on turn and river, I'm trying to put him on a range, and I can't tell exactly what I'm up against.
craze9
10-20-2005, 12:30 PM
Bet pot on turn. Then you know you arent against a bluff if button plays, and small chance he has worse nine if he raises turn or pots river.
ahnuld
10-20-2005, 12:34 PM
?I check raise turn? Call on river? You are 38% equity against a made flush on turn, and he may have a weaker 9. Too bad you didnt improve river, but could he be taking this like with J9 9T 98 97? I think he would call the min raise in position. However when you check call his pot bet on turn, he must think you have something, unless you would do this with the bare A. I think now actually folding the river is fine. He has to put you on something on the turn and he doesnt seem to care. But damn they so agressive in this game. I cant decide. Very very tough hand.
outdrwn
10-20-2005, 12:40 PM
How come you checked the turn? Not only did you improve, but you need to protect and define your hand..It's a lot easier to put him on a range once you bet at him.
captZEEbo1
10-20-2005, 12:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How come you checked the turn? Not only did you improve, but you need to protect and define your hand..It's a lot easier to put him on a range once you bet at him.
[/ QUOTE ]b/c of the utg min raise AND the button cold-call...I don't want to get raised off my hand here, more of a pot control deal. This could be incorrect thinking though.
I think button is capable of having a set on flop here, right...he doesn't want to repot it b/c that'd obviously get everyone to immediately fold.
arod15
10-20-2005, 01:55 PM
Why not reraise the flop? The fold at the end given your line was good....
spoohunter
10-20-2005, 02:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How come you checked the turn? Not only did you improve, but you need to protect and define your hand..It's a lot easier to put him on a range once you bet at him.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've heard "define" your hand a ton of times as something you want to do. I can't for the life of me figure out why.
Big_Jim
10-20-2005, 02:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise the flop?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because then he's playing a monster pot out of position with the worst hand.
[ QUOTE ]
How come you checked the turn? Not only did you improve, but you need to protect and define your hand..It's a lot easier to put him on a range once you bet at him.
[/ QUOTE ]
What hands have you improved against? Overapirs? Protecting against two outs with one card to come is surely not the most pressing concern for you. Defining your hand... you want them to play correctly against you?
HiatusOver
10-20-2005, 02:37 PM
spoohunter I completely agree with u here for the most part and also hate the term "define your hand". I think what it is getting at though is to define what u are representing and see how they react to it.
Big_Jim
10-20-2005, 03:06 PM
Man... tricky spot.
Honestly, I think if you're gonna fold the river here, you need to fold the turn.
Admittedly.. we have 17 outs against the made flush, which is a fairly likely hand for villian, here. However.. there are a few problems with that....
a) vs. a boat with 44 or 66, we only have 7 outs.
b) We almost never get paid off by a worse hand when we improve to the nut flush, except for the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif some percentage of the time.
c) When we DO improve to the nut flush, we still don't necessarily have the best hand, and will be in a hell of a mess on the river when this happens.
d) We only get paid off when we improve to a boat when we hit our A, since we can't get a big bet from a flush with two pair on the board.
e) We could still be behind when we improve to a boat if the 4 or 6 pairs (quads) and this is going to cost us a lot of money.
f) We still have UTG behind us to worry about, who could be getting tricky with a boat.
Overall, I think that the reverse implied odds of this hand make it a fold on the turn.
Big_Jim
10-20-2005, 03:56 PM
If this were live and you could be sure that UTG didn't have a hand... I would consider check/raising all in on the turn, assuming you thought you had fold equity against a flush from button.
I think calling here really sucks.
durrrr
10-20-2005, 05:05 PM
I like your line. Meaning this spot sucks, i'd puke a lot, and hope i play it like you did. Leading the turn for 2/3 pot, or full pot is an option, but a very dangerous one which seems to lose you the most when behind and win you the least when ahead (although you will win the hand a larger % of the time this way). IMO your line, while very ugly, was the best looking one around.
flawless_victory
10-21-2005, 04:58 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This just feels awful on turn and river, I'm trying to put him on a range, and I can't tell exactly what I'm up against.
[/ QUOTE ]im gonna go w/ FLUSH.
captZEEbo1
10-21-2005, 05:17 AM
anyone think I should just muck flop since there are a billion (at least) scare cards and I'll be oop vs 2 aggressive opponents who know how to value bet?
Big_Jim
10-21-2005, 05:53 AM
I have trouble folding to min-raises when I have any kind of draw, especially with the odds you're getting here.
I think it might be a leak.
durrrr
10-21-2005, 07:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
anyone think I should just muck flop since there are a billion (at least) scare cards and I'll be oop vs 2 aggressive opponents who know how to value bet?
[/ QUOTE ]
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone think I should just muck flop since there are a billion (at least) scare cards and I'll be oop vs 2 aggressive opponents who know how to value bet?
[/ QUOTE ]
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Transparant draw.
There is no way you should call a turn pot bet if you don't have a pair here.
durrrr
10-21-2005, 09:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Transparant draw.
There is no way you should call a turn pot bet if you don't have a pair here.
[/ QUOTE ]
he has top pair, his hand is good some % of the time, and because he has the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif he isnt making a huge mistake calling regardless of what hands the villains have.
Nice 1st post btw.
SuperJez
10-21-2005, 09:22 AM
I think the cold call by the button of a bet and raise before him has to be either a draw or a set, both of which have you crushed on the turn so I would have to muck it there to the pot bet.
KaneKungFu123
10-21-2005, 09:23 AM
lead turn, or check-fold.
SuperJez
10-21-2005, 09:29 AM
Of course you have some good redraws, but you have no implied odds for if you hit them on the river so I would check/fold this turn to that bet
Jez
[ QUOTE ]
he has top pair, his hand is good some % of the time, and because he has the A he isnt making a huge mistake calling regardless of what hands the villains have.
[/ QUOTE ]
So after saying all that can we agree that the turn call is -EV because it is such a transparant draw? Even with the boat redraws given he will lose sometimes if the villian spikes quads on the river. Since we believe sometimes he has a flush he has less flushing outs as well.
[ QUOTE ]
Nice 1st post btw.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm?
edit, i'm an idiot. i was talking about the turn and you were talking about the flop but i dont want to delete it all.
AceHiStation
10-21-2005, 10:55 AM
I haven't read the responses yet... but I like a call here. Button limps behind preflop. I'm not willing to put him on 99, I think 44 and 66 are possbilities, but I'm willing to pay him off. I don't think he bets that hard with a flush, especially when it isn't the nut. Button could easily be making a position play but more likely I put villain on tripp 9s: 9Ts, J9s, K9, etc. I assume 4-handed on the button he is calling a lot of hands here, and think the possibility of him holding that 4th 9 is very likely.
LearnedfromTV
10-21-2005, 11:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not willing to put him on 99
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of my league, but even I got this far.
AceHiStation
10-21-2005, 11:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not willing to put him on 99
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of my league, but even I got this far.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you for your great contribution to this thread.
LearnedfromTV
10-21-2005, 12:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not willing to put him on 99
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of my league, but even I got this far.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you for your great contribution to this thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're welcome. Just a joke.
Since you asked, my 'opinion' on the hand in the form of a couple questions:
1. With the flush and paired board, is the button really going to pot value bet a worse 9? What does he expect to call?
2. Why not a river blocking bet of about 2K. Enough to freeze a worse 9 into a call and safely fold to raise?
Edit: These really are questions. Like I said, I'm out of my league. At 2/4 or 3/6 if I check called turn I would block bet river. With a 150BB in a limped pot, most of the time I would check call turn rather than check raise (allin or otherwise).
Lucky
10-21-2005, 12:31 PM
As you played it, i definitely fold river against most players.
I probably would have led the turn for maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of pot, seemingly asking for a call on made flush.
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