An Omaha Question

[gilly]

Ok this has been a widely debated issue among a few of my cohorts. Please give your oppinion.

Playing low limit Omaha hi-lo on the internet.

Your hand -Ac Kc Jd 10d- in mid-position

5 way action to the flop

Flop 3s 5s Jh

It is bet to you (2 people to act after you)

Do you
a) fold
b) call
c) raise

Please give me your oppinion and your reasons. This seems simple yet it has been the subject of much debate. Thanks for your help.

[chaos]

In my opinion it is a clear cut fold.

There are two low cards on the flop. It is extremely likely that someone will make a low. So you are only playing for half the pot.

For high you only have a pair of Jacks. There are two of a suit on board. About half the time a flush will be possible. Any A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or a spade on the turn can give someone a better high hand than yours.

Top pair is not a good hand in Omaha/8.

I don't see any arguments for calling or raising.

[Andy B]

I'm not much of an Omaha player, but it seems to me that this is such a clear fold that it isn't worth debating at all. I wouldn't be that crazy about a top set of Jacks on this board, let alone one stinking pair. The flop missed you; fold and move on. Read Ray's book before it's too late.

[HDPM]

I also don't see how this hand has given rise to any debate. A quick and easy fold. you have no low, so you are playing for half the pot. Your high is no good. You have no high basically. There is a 2 flush on the board and plenty of draws at various little straights. Another jack is not an out if someone has a set. An ace is not an out because it puts a low and a straight out there. So I think you need running kings or perfect-perfect for a broadway as long as those broadway cards are not spades and the A is in your hand, not on the board. If you know running kings are coming I suggest jamming. If you don't know, fold. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Phat Mack]

If you know running kings are coming I suggest jamming. If you don't know, fold.

If he were playing against me, I can guarantee that kings were coming. Since he wasn't, it's a clear fold.

What this hand likes to catch on the flop is broadway with a flush redraw, or a top set of trips with best kickers. When that doesn't hit, it's a hand from which it is easy to get away.

jmo

[Jimbo]

I'll make it unanimous, fold without a 2nd thought.

[HDPM]

When you are playing and the running k's come on this board (when opp. stays w/ K-J) I assume you usually have something like A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif or A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif2 /forums/images/icons/club.gifJ /forums/images/icons/spade.gifJ /forums/images/icons/club.gif

[Buzz]

"Your hand -Ac Kc Jd 10d- in mid-position

5 way action to the flop

Flop 3s 5s Jh

It is bet to you (2 people to act after you)"

Gilly - In my humble opinion it's a very clear fold. After the flop you usually want to be needing only one card (of the next two) to make a straight or higher. There are some exceptions, with a variety of back-door (two card) draws, but this is not one of them (although you do have some back door possibilities here). Sometimes fluke one pair or two pair hands win for high, but not often enough in these loose games to make playing a pair of jacks profitable, on the average, especially with two low cards and two suited cards (but not one of your suits) on the flop.

Ac Kc Jd 10d is a decent, but not great starting hand. One of the reasons Ac Kc Jd 10d is a decent hand is that you should have an easy time folding when you miss the flop, as you did here.

Lastly, you are out of position.

Fold.

Buzz

[gilly]

Thanks everyone,

You all have agreed with my stance. I feel the exact same way you all do. I just wanted to post to make sure that I was not going insane. The person I have this disagreement with is a good player and I agree with most of his other decisions so I began to question how I felt in regards to this situation. My take is exactly what you all said. You are in big trouble. The other players take is that right now you most likely have the best hand. And if a low does not come you are going to be good for the whole pot. Thanks for your time everyone. I appreciate it.

[chaos]

The other players take is that right now you most likely have the best hand.

This is a common problem in the thinking of bad players. It is irrelevant who has the best hand preflop, on the flop or on the turn. Only the people with the best hand on the end get the money. I find that players who think this way are likely to go on tilt because they often view themselves as getting bad beats. If on the flop you are likely to have the best hand on the river, that's a different story.

A useful concept for when there are more cards still to come, is to ask yourself what cards you would like to see and what cards you do not want to see.

[El Dukie]

This is going to be repetitive, but like Chaos said, it doesn't matter that you have the best hand, especially on the flop, and especially in O-8. In loose games, there are usually so many draws out there that the best hand on the flop will rarely hold up, especially something as weak as top pair. The low cards on board makes it worse, since you know anyone with a decent low draw will chase you to the river. So even if the low doesn't come, you're still in jeopardy to their backdoor draws, etc.

Yes, AKJT with the Ace suited is a good starting hand, but like most high-only hands, much of its strength is because it's easy to get away from if you miss the flop.

[Sirens]

You have missed your hand. You usually want to flop top two. Trips or st8 draws to continue. Clear Fold.