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View Full Version : Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.


Gigabet
10-20-2005, 06:30 AM
I'll just post the relevant players in this hand history. I will start be telling you that the game is 9 handed, I am the SB and Dan Harrington is the big blind. Our stacks are very nearly equal at around 120k a piece. The blinds are 600/1200.

Festa al Lago 10k Buy-In WPT Main Event
Blinds 600/1200

Seat 1 Gigabet(120,000)
Seat 2 Dan Harrington(120,000)


Gigabet posts small blind of 600
Dan Harrington posts big blind of 1200

Gigabet is dealt (Js,Th)

Gigabet calls 600
Dan Harrington Checks

Flop (Jd Th 3c)

Gigabet bets 2700
Dan Harrington raises to 7000
Gigabet calls

Turn (4h)

Gigabet bets 12,000
Dan Harrington raises to 30,000
Gigabet folds



Conversation between Dan and I during the hand, after Dan raises the turn card.

Gigabet: What do you have?
DAn: I have a very strong hand
Gigabet: I flopped Top Two pair
Dan: My hand is not that strong(referring to the strength of what I said my hand was)]

I should include the fact that the avg stack for the field is around 65k. The avg stack for my table was around 90k.




At the end of the second day, there are 39 or so players left, and I have 230k.

tigerite
10-20-2005, 06:32 AM
It sounds like he had KhQh or something similar, but this being Action Dan it could just as well be 4 3 offsuit

10-20-2005, 06:35 AM
So what do you put him on?

durron597
10-20-2005, 06:38 AM
I don't see how you can put him on exactly 333 after that action, and nothing else he has beats us.

Exitonly
10-20-2005, 06:39 AM
If you were planning on folding to another raise, why not check call the turn, and put a blocking bet on the river (or check call again)


i'd really want to see a showdown here.

Gigabet
10-20-2005, 06:42 AM
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

Seadood228
10-20-2005, 06:44 AM
I couldn't fold that hand to taht flop. I'd have played it more passive on the the flop and turn, but I just couldn't let it go at any point.

I'd probably donk it and just check/call all the way, maybe leading a little on the river. I wouldn't want to go broke in this spot, especially with those chips, but I still don't think I could fold.

Personally I think top two is strong enough to give free cards to on a rainbow board against a player who let me limp on his blind.

So does anyone except me check this flop?

[EDIT] BTW I can def see the arguement for folding here. Reasons have already been stated.

tigerite
10-20-2005, 06:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, did you have that Th up your sleeve, or did the dealer put two packs together? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Seadood228
10-20-2005, 06:46 AM
I think that's the line I'd take throughout the hand, esp against someone with that stack... And I'm taking my time with each call.

Exitonly
10-20-2005, 06:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't J4 play it that way too?

And even if only J3,33,JT did it.. there are more combinations of J3 than 33 or JT, so you've got better than 50% equity.. though i can understand not risking a huge portion of your stack to that..

durron597
10-20-2005, 06:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or he knows you are aggressive and is playing back at you. He is very tight but he plays differently in blind vs. blind confrontations. I think he could easily have Jx hearts here.

By the way, what did you have here?

[ QUOTE ]

Date / Time: 2005-10-19 18:42:00
Title: Darrell Dicken Uses the Button
Log: David Oppenheim raised the pot preflop to $5,000 from early position. Eric Weiner called in late position and Darrell Dicken called on the button. The flop came Qd-9d-5h, and the action checked around. The turn brought the 4h, and Oppenheim fired out $14,000 in chips. Weiner quickly called, and the action was on Dicken. Dicken thought for a few moments, examining the board and eventually deciding to call. The river brought the 6h. Oppenheim checked, as did Weiner, and the action was back on Dicken who announced, "I'm all in," and started to move all of his chips forward. It was nearly a $100,000 bet, and that was enought to send Oppenheim into the tank. After a long period of deliberation, Oppenheim opted to fold. Weiner then started to talk, indicating that he thought Dicken was on a total bluff. "I'm sick," Weiner repeatedly said, before mucking his hand. Was it a position bet or was Dicken holding the nuts? You have to pay to find out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Gigabet
10-20-2005, 06:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably donk it and just check/call all the way, maybe leading a little on the river. I wouldn't want to go broke in this spot, especially with those chips, but I still don't think I could fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why play this hand, or any hand for that for that matter, if you cannot get real value. If I am check calling, trying to get a cheap showdown, I add right around 10% to my stack(I imagine the pot would be around 12k at the showdown), that is for the times that I win. The times that I lose the hand, playing that way, I will lose more than 10% of my stack, because he is going to be betting more, making the pot larger, and allowing himself to make even larger bets on subsequent streets.

This line of play is a leak, that I see all of the time. Most players know that in situations where you are either way ahead or way behind, that it becomes obvious that either raising or folding is much better decision than all others if you could see the others cards. But since the cards cannot be seen, most players choose the middle ground, which is to call. That is faulty thinking, it is almost always better to pick one of the options that has a chance to be much better than all other possible decisions.

Gigabet
10-20-2005, 07:05 AM
I had 72o, David actually bet 6k on the flop also. I was originally intending on representing diamonds, but the hearts got there instead, so I just had to make it incredibly unprofitable for them to call.

BTW, David spent 15 minutes in the tank, no one called for time, cause everyone at the table understood what an awful predicament I had put him in. He obviously had a big hand, but also understood that to make the call, he could never be wrong. Whole time he was in the tank, I was staring at the felt, with this mantra streaming through my mind. "pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedo ntcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpl easedontcallpleasedon....)

AleoMagus
10-20-2005, 07:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o, David actually bet 6k on the flop also. I was originally intending on representing diamonds, but the hearts got there instead, so I just had to make it incredibly unprofitable for them to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just can't believe this. But if you say so, nh.

[ QUOTE ]
pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedo ntcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpl easedontcallpleasedon....)

[/ QUOTE ]

no kidding!

Regards
Brad S

lacky
10-20-2005, 07:16 AM
eh, forget that hand, the one I liked was when you did this

2005 WPT
Festa al Lago IV
No Limit Hold'em
Oct 20, 2005
01:41:31 EDT Darrell Dicken knocks out Eric Weiner

after calling the raise with 75o.

Steve

Scuba Chuck
10-20-2005, 07:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o, David actually bet 6k on the flop also. I was originally intending on representing diamonds, but the hearts got there instead, so I just had to make it incredibly unprofitable for them to call.

BTW, David spent 15 minutes in the tank, no one called for time, cause everyone at the table understood what an awful predicament I had put him in. He obviously had a big hand, but also understood that to make the call, he could never be wrong. Whole time he was in the tank, I was staring at the felt, with this mantra streaming through my mind. "pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedo ntcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpl easedontcallpleasedon....)

[/ QUOTE ]

This should be sweet to see on TV.

ansky451
10-20-2005, 07:26 AM
Is the possibility he is simply bluffing not an actual possibility?

Seadood228
10-20-2005, 07:28 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Why play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because JTs is soooo pretty dammit.

Seriously, I'm trying to understand what your saying but it might be beyond my comprehension. Let's say he has you beat on the flop with 33, TT, JJ. First of all I'm not quite sure he's going to bet the flop, but even if he does for say, 2/3 pot, then bets the same on the turn and river, you'll be in for 20k, which is about what you were in for by the turn in your example. Honestly though, I'm not quite you are going to be in for that much if he's flopped a set in a BvB situation, especially if you call with a lot of reluctance.

I understand your idea about getting full value if he has a worse hand, but don't you think a)the times he ends up calling you down with worse hands after showing flop passivity, b) the times you get him to bet at the pot with air, and c) the times you thwart him getting you to lay the best hand down, make up for all of this?

[ QUOTE ]
Most players know that in situations where you are either way ahead or way behind

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think that's very tough in a situation such as this? Personally I think Dan could have a few more hands than you put him on, even with the turn raise.

And BTW I'm not advocating playing the hand this way all the time, but under these circumstances... well yes I am a pansy.

Seadood228
10-20-2005, 07:30 AM
Jeezus.. Doing it with the diamonds takes balls, but when the hearts got there...

OMFG... nh.

Exitonly
10-20-2005, 07:32 AM
I'm with seadood here, i dont see how check calling, maybe leading on the river, would be losing more value than folding top two pair in a blind v blind hand, on a not scary board.

ansky451
10-20-2005, 07:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o,

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually?

Exitonly
10-20-2005, 07:36 AM
err... what doyou think about checck raising the turn?

ActionJeff
10-20-2005, 09:02 AM
hi Gigabet,


My problem with this is that it is a BB-SB confrontation. Even the tightest players muscle up there. Surely Dan Harrington knows he is up against a creative, aggresive opponent. Perhaps his raise was just for info and potentially a free showdown? Or maybe he was playing position with a marginal hand? Without some ungodly read, this fold seems unthinkable to me.

also- dan had position on you preflop. I don't know how aggresive he was playing, but perhaps he would have raised your sb limp with 33 and position?

oh and did you really have 72o? lol, wow!

Dr_Jeckyl_00
10-20-2005, 09:37 AM
Why not reraise Dan on the flop... you went ahead and bet the turn anyway. (Dan is not going to just call you... he will bet/raise or fold). What was your image at the table? How have you played recently, and how had you been playing from the small blind (regardless of the cards you played from SB)?

I think that Dan is defending his blind, playing his position on you and backing it up with his tight image... Are you the only two in the hand? If so, and if he had JJ, TT he would definitely raise pf, and probably w/ 33 too if it is just you two. IMO, you folded best hand... but you're gigabet and I am a novice...

10-20-2005, 10:07 AM
Why are you overbetting the pot on the flop giga? That way you build a monster pot, but you are not willing to put all your chips in with top two, heads up. You must think about this before betting or not?

If you do think he is not going to pay you something if he is beat you can just check it down, fold to a bet or call a induced bluff on the river. Urgh but weak tight.

My line: 1/3 of the pot on the flop as a "feeling" bet. You are not giving him the right odds for any weak draw and you don't tell him anything about your hand. Heads up he is going to raise with top or middle pair and some very good draws like KQ. I call his raise on the flop. The four is not dangerous, so i show maximum strength checkraising to a third of your stacks. Now the pressure is on him.
If he then is still in there he has trips and i don't pay any more on the river or to a reraise on the turn.

But back to your line. I see Dan playing this way with JT, J3, J4, T3 and 33. JJ and TT he would raise preflop and there is just one combination left of each so take them out.

There are 27 combination you dominate with over 95% and only 3 combinations where you are a 91% underdog. How can you fold? Aha, the answer is in the title of the post ... :-)

I bet he had T3 and got away lucky.

bennies
10-20-2005, 10:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise Dan on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I ask the same thing, and I think you might have given away the strenght of your hand by just calling.

Calling on the flop seems to say you want a cheap showdown. But you didn't want this to be too obvious so you aggressively (block) betted the turn. Harrington read this and bluff raised you.

Or he simply had 33 and you were right...

The Don
10-20-2005, 10:21 AM
I understand where Gig is coming from... Harrington is clearly trying to jack up the pot size here (I get VERY suspicious when people raise the flop AND turn). Also given his situation in the tournament a fold doesn't hurt him too badly but getting stacked, well, kind of does. Regardless, I would have gotten all of my chips in there, call it a leak /images/graemlins/wink.gif

adanthar
10-20-2005, 10:30 AM
I can't put him on 33 after the flop raise no matter how much I try, but he might just play it that way vs. a LAG. I think I'm willing to go for broke vs. J3 here, but I realize you think your edge is greater. nh. Almost as nice as the 72o.

zipppy
10-20-2005, 10:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise Dan on the flop... you went ahead and bet the turn anyway. (Dan is not going to just call you... he will bet/raise or fold).


[/ QUOTE ]

I usually don't do this, but the more I think about it the more I like this line.

Are there problems with reraising? Are there better ways to get value out of this hand when you're ahead, and/or lose less chips when behind?

Dr_Jeckyl_00
10-20-2005, 10:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise Dan on the flop... you went ahead and bet the turn anyway. (Dan is not going to just call you... he will bet/raise or fold).


[/ QUOTE ]

I usually don't do this, but the more I think about it the more I like this line.

Are there problems with reraising? Are there better ways to get value out of this hand when you're ahead, and/or lose less chips when behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to know your opponent. Calling could be correct against a weak opponent I guess, but not against Action Dan

betgo
10-20-2005, 10:54 AM
The only thing that beats you is a set. If Harrington had a pp, why didn't he raise preflop when you completed in the SB? I don't think KQ is likely, for the same reason, but he he could have 98. Given your image, even though you like to play flops, Harrington is going to assume a complete is a weak hand, and will probably raise with any decent hand with position.

Given your aggressive image, Harrington could be playing back with nothing or little SB vs. BB. I think you have to call or raise the turn bet.

JTo is pretty strong heads up. Why not raise preflop?

chisness
10-20-2005, 11:25 AM
isn't T3 a pretty likely hand that you're destroying that you haven't considered?

Karak567
10-20-2005, 11:28 AM
If the villain was an unknown as opposed to being Dan Harrington, would you have played this any differently?

KKsuited
10-20-2005, 11:41 AM
What butt heads sb vs bb when you've got twice the average stack, out of position, and totally guessing where you're at. I'm with giga on this one, not really a difficult fold.

He's at $230k now. Lay that hand down and pick better spots the rest of the day. It's easy to say what the right play was after we know his hand is good.

fnord_too
10-20-2005, 11:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If the villain was an unknown as opposed to being Dan Harrington, would you have played this any differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for Gigabet, but I might. The turn raise really screams strength. A good player only raises there with a very strong or very weak (i.e. bluff) hand I think, with a good hand, those stacks and the pot size I'm pretty sure a good player will just call there. Dan is definitely a good player, and unknown may not be.

Exitonly
10-20-2005, 11:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
isn't T3 a pretty likely hand that you're destroying that you haven't considered?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, i just thought of that too.

Think there are 3 hands we beat here: T3,J3,J4

and there aer 6 combinations of each of those, so 18 combos we kill.

1 hand we tie with, JT, 4 combos of that.

1 hand that beats us, 3 combos of that.

So we're winning 18 times, tying 4 times, losing 3 times.


Maybe T3 doesnt raise the turn like that, so then it would be 12v4v3

Still a good situation for us, and we'd have to think his hand was more weighed towards 33, and i dont think we can do that.

pooh74
10-20-2005, 12:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If the villain was an unknown as opposed to being Dan Harrington, would you have played this any differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think against an unknown who play the flop and turn this way (after a PF check), I would be more likely to give them credit, not less. This is why I suck though...I could never make this laydown.

Rduke55
10-20-2005, 12:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Whole time he was in the tank, I was staring at the felt, with this mantra streaming through my mind. "pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedo ntcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpl easedontcallpleasedon....)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to use "Thesearenotthedroidsyou'relookingforThesearenotthe droidsyou'relookingforThesearenotthedroidsyou'relo okingforThesearenotthedroidsyou'relookingfor..."

Nice play.

locutus2002
10-20-2005, 12:13 PM
Wow. This does not jibe with my image of Gigabet from Play a Hand with the Masters, where he says

"When I really like my hand(meaning I will go broke with it), I do not put my opponent on a range of hands. I know that I want everything to get in the middle, so I just need to figure out how to do that."

The 4 cannot have helped Dan, so the only hands that beat Gigabet are:

33 - 3 ways
TT - 1 way
JJ - 1 way

There are 18 ways Dan can have QQ++ and 12 ways for a weaker 2 pr. 30 hands that Dan could be playing like this.

I think he shows his final stack at the EOD to justify his laydown as he has EV in the tournament. Sure he has EV, but how much?

I don't like how he played the hand. If Gigabet is not willing to get all his chips in on this flop/safe turn (because his stack is so deep), then he should engineer the betting so that he gets to put the T30,000 bet in and test Dan for all his chips.

ActionJeff
10-20-2005, 12:27 PM
I think Dan might check 33 in the big blind there.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for Gigabet, but I might. The turn raise really screams strength. A good player only raises there with a very strong or very weak (i.e. bluff) hand I think, with a good hand, those stacks and the pot size I'm pretty sure a good player will just call there. Dan is definitely a good player, and unknown may not be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Dan does not need a very big hand to make that raise. The actual size of the raise is a little suspicious, It almost looks like Dan is trying to buy a showdown... I think he probably folds a lot of worse hands to a three bet.

Obviously I don't know past history, and can only guess on the players' percieved images, but it seems to me that it would make sense to call and lead the river, or c/c river if for some reason giga thinks dan is making a move (clearly he didn't think that though). C/r turn seems like an OK line, but I think i like calling Dan's raise and betting.

betgo
10-20-2005, 12:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The 4 cannot have helped Dan, so the only hands that beat Gigabet are:

33 - 3 ways
TT - 1 way
JJ - 1 way

There are 18 ways Dan can have QQ++ and 12 ways for a weaker 2 pr. 30 hands that Dan could be playing like this.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think JJ or TT are extremely unlikely. Harrington almost certainly would have raised preflop with these and there are only so many jacks and tens in the deck.

Really 33 is all you are worried about, unless Harrington had 44 and was bluffing on the flop, but got lucky on the turn.

Harrington could have J3, T3, 98, or maybe QQ-AA. He could also be bluffing. Remember the reraise with 62o against Raymer and Arieh at the WSOP.

Exitonly
10-20-2005, 12:37 PM
I think 89 is really unlikely here. Really, really unlikely.

cferejohn
10-20-2005, 12:42 PM
You and Dan Harrington are better poker players than I will ever be, but I'm going to come out and say that I think this is a terrible fold. Dan is obviously a tight player, but from having watched him on TV and from reading his books, he certainly knows he has that image, and he certainly takes advantage of it from time to time, especially against players who are aggressive but smart enough to lay down (this is the exact profile of the sort of player one would try the sqeeze play that he advocates against). Gigabet fits that profile exactly.

Even if his range *is* 2 pair or better, it looks like you have a +EV call here, since you beat J3, T3, and T4 (I think this is a possible holding because he could certainly have raised an SB be who completed then bet the flop with second pair).

And I still think there is a chance he's on a complete bluff (not a very big one, but as I said before, it seems he's capable of running a complete bluff against exactly this sort of player in exactly this sort of situation, exactly because when he raises the flop and turn he knows Gigabet will put him on a big hand).

And what do we think he puts gigabet on? Calling the SB and then making a flop overbet when J-high flops? That should look like top pair who doesn't want to give a cheap card, and Dan's thinking might easily be "I think I can push him off top pair if I represent something that can beat it".

Fwiw, I also like the "check the turn" line. The way the hand has played so far, Harrington could also easily put giga on 89, 9Q, or even KQ, and a check the turn fits right in with this and will probably get a bet (and it also should keep the pot size under control since that seems to be a concern).

tipperdog
10-20-2005, 12:51 PM
Dan could also have a big pair here, which he decided to slowplay before the flop. This is consistent with the subsequent play, in which he raises enough to give Gigabet incorrect odds with a hand like 89.

Based on his book, I think Dan would slowplay AA, KK, and maybe QQ in this spot, but NOT TT or JJ.

Hence, IMO, possible hands for Dan include AA, KK, 33, JT, J3, or T3. With that range, I push the turn.

1C5
10-20-2005, 01:00 PM
On the flop. Is Dan really going to make a very large raise if he is holding 33, JJ, or TT? No way. He is going to slowplay it IMO.

Therefore I think that range you put him on his not that correct and he most likely had a weaker hand than you gave him credit for and knowing that you are a tricky player, he was trying to defend his blinds with either TPTK or less or a draw.

SCfuji
10-20-2005, 01:15 PM
wow. yougotballsofsteelyougotballsofsteelyougotballsofs teelyougotballsofsteelyougotballsofsteelyougotball sofsteel

Dr_Jeckyl_00
10-20-2005, 01:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Dan could also have a big pair here, which he decided to slowplay before the flop. This is consistent with the subsequent play, in which he raises enough to give Gigabet incorrect odds with a hand like 89.

Based on his book, I think Dan would slowplay AA, KK, and maybe QQ in this spot, but NOT TT or JJ.

Hence, IMO, possible hands for Dan include AA, KK, 33, JT, J3, or T3. With that range, I push the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dan says in his book that he does not like to slow play. I don't think that letting the SB see a flop is a good slow play b/c Dan would have no idea what Giga was holding, so therefore he would not do it... not his style. Dan might slow play pf if the pot was already raised, but AA-TT are not likely at all b/c Dan would raise pf, IMO...

fnord_too
10-20-2005, 01:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]


I disagree. Dan does not need a very big hand to make that raise. The actual size of the raise is a little suspicious, It almost looks like Dan is trying to buy a showdown... I think he probably folds a lot of worse hands to a three bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I say he needs a big hand or a bluff to raise the turn is this: With a good hand a raise
<ul type="square">
will chase out weaker hands and air that may fire again on the river
has to fold to a 3 bet, when it could in all likelihood see a showdown for less than or equal to the raise amount
makes calling a river bet more attractive if Giga calls and fires agains (i.e. ties him more to the hand with a marginal holding)
makes pushing a reasonable action, since the pot and stacks will be close in size
[/list]
Why would he want to build a big pot with a good but not great holding here? That is horrible pot control, and Dan Harrington knows about controling the pot size. He may be on a third or higher level of thinking bluff, but he most certainly is not making this kind of raise with a relatively marginal hand. The raise is big enough to make calling with most draws incorrect, but again, that is not a punishing bet he is likely to make with a hand that could be behind at the moment. So what's a good but not great hand here? Any one pair hand and, really, the weaker two pair hands. Having position allows you to control the pot size, and with stacks as deep as they are at the start of the hand, that is huge.

With his turn bet Dan sais "I know I can play a decent size pot here, but I am willing to play for all my chips." The only way you can call here is if you think he is on a bluff or would say that with a weaker two pair. A semi bluff is very unlikely here, he is denying odds to a draw, but is still giving a good price. If you decide you are ahead here, raising is not so hot since it gives Dan an opportunity to correctly fold his 2-6 outer (if we rule out a semi-bluff), or his no outer if he is on a stone bluff.

pineapple888
10-20-2005, 01:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause 50% of your stack size is sitting in the pot, and the combinations out are 12xJ3, 8xJT, and 6x33.

It's basic math and very +cEV and +$EV to push here if you put him on that range, and I suspect his actual range is far wider, as others have argued.

Not every play has to be fancy. Basic blocking and tackling can win lots of $$ also, and this is a perfect example.

Unless you happen to think you can find even higher +EV opportunities later. But that's an old, tired discussion.

Exitonly
10-20-2005, 01:36 PM
Given the way he got here, i don't particuarly love a push.. I'm not convinced Harrington calls with any worse hands.


That said, i'm pretty convinced of what i said earlier, check calling the turn, re-evaluate on river, either block bet or check-call again.

fnord_too
10-20-2005, 01:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Given the way he got here, i don't particuarly love a push.. I'm not convinced Harrington calls with any worse hands.


That said, i'm pretty convinced of what i said earlier, check calling the turn, re-evaluate on river, either block bet or check-call again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is IMO a much better line for Giga here. (If I already said that in this thread, I am getting this and the MTT threads mixed up in my head.)

pineapple888
10-20-2005, 01:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Given the way he got here, i don't particuarly love a push.. I'm not convinced Harrington calls with any worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a LAG in a blind vs. blind?

Or, conversely, he'll never fold JT?

Put him to the test. Give him a chance to make a "mistake".

Exitonly
10-20-2005, 01:44 PM
I'm not too confident about Harrington making a mistake.

I'll take the safe route.

pineapple888
10-20-2005, 01:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not too confident about Harrington making a mistake.

I'll take the safe route.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, it's not a mistake in judgement, it's a "mistake" based on imperfect information, which is why I put it in quotes.

SossMan
10-20-2005, 02:18 PM
If this was anyone but Gigabet there wouldn't even be a discussion except maybe to post this pic:

http://lightsout.onestop.net/noose.jpg

The Yugoslavian
10-20-2005, 02:23 PM
He probably had 72o.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Good luck pwning today!

Yugoslav

gobboboy
10-20-2005, 04:02 PM
I agree that I simply cannot find a fold here. Blind v blind battles come down to ace high over king high sometimes, and folding top two against someone who loves to use their image seems -EV. I definitely jam the turn to his raise.

KingDan
10-20-2005, 04:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o, David actually bet 6k on the flop also. I was originally intending on representing diamonds, but the hearts got there instead, so I just had to make it incredibly unprofitable for them to call.

BTW, David spent 15 minutes in the tank, no one called for time, cause everyone at the table understood what an awful predicament I had put him in. He obviously had a big hand, but also understood that to make the call, he could never be wrong. Whole time he was in the tank, I was staring at the felt, with this mantra streaming through my mind. "pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedo ntcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpl easedontcallpleasedon....)

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands would you push for value there?

Eric Draven
10-20-2005, 04:27 PM
I don't understand why you would fold this, and really don't understand why it's easy.

Is it because he told you his hand was not that strong that you folded?

I really don't understand. Please explain.

schwza
10-20-2005, 04:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhh.... how about Q8? or 4h 7h? or 57?

or, in the realm of good hands, T4? J4? JQ? i think the small raise could be JQ's bid to get to a cheap showdown / lose a small amount if he's beat. T4 and J4 could be raising for value.

you need a very strong read on someone that they wouldn't raise twice with air or raise once with air and a second time with a draw in order to make that fold. as someone else said, if you were anyone else, everyone would say your play was horrible.

if you think it's the right fold, fine. but saying it's not a hard fold is ridiculous.

pineapple888
10-20-2005, 05:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
He probably had 72o.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Good luck pwning today!

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. He's probably spurring us all to respond as part of some grand move that will pay off three years from now.

I'm serious.

Any third-party or T.V. evidence that he had JT?

Scuba Chuck
10-20-2005, 06:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He probably had 72o.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Good luck pwning today!

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. He's probably spurring us all to respond as part of some grand move that will pay off three years from now.

I'm serious.

Any third-party or T.V. evidence that he had JT?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are failing to see that the 72 hand is a completely different hand. Go read the MTT forum.

10-20-2005, 06:41 PM
Congrats Gigabet on your 20th place finish!

The Yugoslavian
10-20-2005, 06:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He probably had 72o.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Good luck pwning today!

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. He's probably spurring us all to respond as part of some grand move that will pay off three years from now.

I'm serious.

Any third-party or T.V. evidence that he had JT?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are failing to see that the 72 hand is a completely different hand. Go read the MTT forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I'm not.

I hate you.

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Yugoslav

TakenItEasy
10-20-2005, 06:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The 4 cannot have helped Dan, so the only hands that beat Gigabet are:

33 - 3 ways
TT - 1 way
JJ - 1 way

There are 18 ways Dan can have QQ++ and 12 ways for a weaker 2 pr. 30 hands that Dan could be playing like this.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think JJ or TT are extremely unlikely. Harrington almost certainly would have raised preflop with these and there are only so many jacks and tens in the deck.

Really 33 is all you are worried about, unless Harrington had 44 and was bluffing on the flop, but got lucky on the turn.

Harrington could have J3, T3, 98, or maybe QQ-AA. He could also be bluffing. Remember the reraise with 62o against Raymer and Arieh at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised no one has suggested Qh9h.

pineapple888
10-20-2005, 07:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He probably had 72o.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Good luck pwning today!

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. He's probably spurring us all to respond as part of some grand move that will pay off three years from now.

I'm serious.

Any third-party or T.V. evidence that he had JT?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are failing to see that the 72 hand is a completely different hand. Go read the MTT forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither. I caught the reference.

But I don't hate you.

microbet
10-20-2005, 07:04 PM
It was a great laydown since Harrington had 82o.

mts
10-20-2005, 07:07 PM
maybe he would have gotten 1st if he didnt let harrington bully him

Sykes
10-20-2005, 07:35 PM
This is a terrible fold. Period.

You people need to realize that folding top two in this situation IS TERRIBLE NO MATTER THE PLAYERS.

Even the Rockest of players will double-raise here with a lesser two pair.

Paxosmotic
10-20-2005, 08:20 PM
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

The Yugoslavian
10-20-2005, 08:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
BHave you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

The mighty Gigabet has no use for hands such as AA.

Actually, if you think about it, Giga's Shania is through the roof!!

Yugoslav

Big Limpin'
10-20-2005, 08:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!!

I think its about time someone manned up and said this, thank you Pax.

Pudge714
10-20-2005, 11:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!!

I think its about time someone manned up and said this, thank you Pax.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of his players are highly read depedent obviously Gigabet has much more information about this hand than anyone posting on this forum. He felt it was the right fold, and it may have been, it may not have been. Obviously it is an unorthodox laydown and that is why he is posting it, however it is hard to give a good opinion when your Gigabet had much more info then you.

bones
10-20-2005, 11:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he do that? Maybe you like seeing endless posts asking about how to play AK after the flop when it misses, or whether 66 is a good push 5 handed, but a lot of people don't.

When I see a post like this or his "72o" push, I don't rush right out and try it in my $22. But it does give me a good reason to think about poker in more depth than I normally would. Whether I agree with the line or not doesn't make the post and reasoning behind it any more or less valuable to me. I don't understand why it would for you.

Chaostracize
10-21-2005, 12:57 AM
Yeah, those are some pretty interesting hands to talk about.

10-21-2005, 03:44 AM
Im still thinking dan could have KQ hearts or Jx hearts, if the flopped ten is a heart as opposed to the one in Gigs hand. I dont see why these are not in his range. Great hand tho.

Gigabet
10-21-2005, 04:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!!

I think its about time someone manned up and said this, thank you Pax.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is your choice to read the hand histories that I post, and it is your choice to believe the info that I post in the hand history. I have no reason to lie about my holdings, I do have a complete HH that I posted of a step 5 higher that I played, where you can see all of my holdings(or maybe I changed all of my hand holdings in the txt file, I did post it 15 minutes after it finished, I had plenty of time.) If you reread that hh of the step 5 higher, and you choose to believe the info contained, I do not think that you will have a hard time believing that I had 72o in the hand against dave and eric, nor JT here.

I did write in one of the previous posts that this was an easy fold. That was supposed to be obvious sarcasm.

chisness
10-21-2005, 04:18 AM
are you regretting this now?

psyduck
10-21-2005, 04:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to read these you know? Personally, I find it interesting to read hands played by a person who crushes the highest SNGs available online and who spends time / plays with the best tournament players in the world.

Big Limpin'
10-21-2005, 04:48 AM
I should clarify what i meant by the "emperors new clothes" reference. I refer to some of the best *players* on this forum being built up into deity standing (by others) to a point where they become "unquestionable"...in that chumps like me and 95% of the forum are intimidated to question a line or choice of posting material. Much akin to that fable i referenced. It want intended as an attack on anyone, just a commentary on the caste system of STTF.

The implication was not that you are B.S.ing with fabricated HHs. I do not understand where you got that from, nor why you got overly defensive there? Or do I?

Also man, realize that your posts are terrific because they provoke thoughts that few others do...and also incredibly frustrating because they usually dont give the line of thought "bridge" to get us understanding exactly why a play is best.

Scuba Chuck
10-21-2005, 05:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]


I did write in one of the previous posts that this was an easy fold. That was supposed to be obvious sarcasm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, I missed the sarcasm.

bluffski
10-21-2005, 05:12 AM
I personally think you just made a laydown that kept u in the tournament. Congrats.

10-21-2005, 07:43 AM
Just where do I find that HH, btw? I've been searching for it but no joy.

And I have to admit, I think this is a straight, mathematically bad fold. (Based on his books, his most probably hand might be J4.) But hey, I'm not on the WPT, I guess you're doing something right...

10-21-2005, 08:00 AM
I'd estimate there is an 85% chance that you folded the best hand here. Needless to say, if you are playing to win the tournament, that would be a clear error.

Reraise on the flop enough so that Action Dan has poor drawing odds. Most likely he will lay his hand down. If he calls or pushes, you can decide whether you want to push.

This laydown is the tactical equivalent of laying down KK pre-flop because your opponent "appears" to have pocket AA.

One more thing to add - if Dan has the set of 3s, you still have 4 outs for the bigger boat.

Seadood228
10-21-2005, 08:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This laydown is the tactical equivalent of laying down KK pre-flop because your opponent "appears" to have pocket AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting, because I could think of a few scenarios where I'd do this given those stack sizes. More so than folding top two in Gigabets situation..

But I don't necessarily agree that getting all the chips in at some point is the best idea.

Seadood228
10-21-2005, 08:08 AM
I really think it's difficult for either of those hands to raise the turn given hero's actions. Of all the possible hands that Dan could have, those two are pretty much the only ones that unequivocally DO NOT want to be pushed on. Dan knows this and would not risk it there.

2pr, overpair, or TPGK however... Well I believe that a lot more. And of course there is 33,JJ,TT.

10-21-2005, 08:22 AM
If Action Dan is willing to call or reraise a HUGE flop re-raise, then that would certainly give me pause for thought.

Giga would still have enough chips left after a flop reraise to reconsider and try to get a read before committing all his chips - or folding. The most important thing about this hypothetical flop reraise is that it should be big enough to convey the clear message to Action Dan that he's probably going to have to risk almost all his chips to win this pot.

That way, you can:

1) put pressure on Dan
2) gain better information about what he is holding

The way Giga plays the flop and turn doesn't define Dan's hand as well as it could.

And Dan will have to think seriously about the possibility of Giga having a set and of possibly being crippled (or out) if he pushes.

And an earlier poster is right in thinking Dan might have AA,KK or QQ here. This is precisely the type of situation Dan would slowplay these hands (against a single opponent, with position, and a safe flop)

Congratulations on a classic Hellmuthian laydown.

10-21-2005, 08:32 AM
There are a lot of heart tens in the deck.

tigerite
10-21-2005, 09:03 AM
I've already spotted that on page 1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

10-21-2005, 09:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I've already spotted that on page 1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]I only read the posts from the big-name posters before posting about the two heart tens. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

betgo
10-21-2005, 09:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o,

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not seem likely. Not only is it a junk hand, but it is a famous classic junk hand. Most readers, being poker players, have a feel for what is plausible.

I think this leads people to question whether you really had JTo in the main hand being discussed.

Gigabet
10-21-2005, 09:46 AM
I played lots of junk hands, and even had to show some of them down. Do you really think i use hand selection for a foundation of my game? Go look at the live updates from the world series, at pokerwire. See if you can find a premium hand that was shown by me. You could make it a game, kind of like Where's Waldo.

betgo
10-21-2005, 09:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I played lots of junk hands, and even had to show some of them down. Do you really think i use hand selection for a foundation of my game? Go look at the live updates from the world series, at pokerwire. See if you can find a premium hand that was shown by me. You could make it a game, kind of like Where's Waldo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen you show down plenty of extreme junk hands. However, if you said you had 85o, it would be more plausible than 72o.

zipppy
10-21-2005, 10:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]

I think he shows his final stack at the EOD to justify his laydown as he has EV in the tournament. Sure he has EV, but how much?


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

I think a lot of other people also justify his play by saying, "look how many chips he has now."

Think of how many he could have had!

mts
10-21-2005, 12:08 PM
i think, if your going to limp in then you have to go with it when you hit a big hand. if your going to fold to pressure then why not raise preflop or just fold? When you limp its relying too much on luck and the weakness of the other player. sick fold.

LostMyCaseMoney
10-21-2005, 02:45 PM
Well I get hard-ons reading some of your HHs but I hate the way you played this the whole way.

On the flop you make a pot size bet (a little over for the sticklers, yes but not much). I'm guessing this has been a common move for you throughout the tournament and is the play you would be expected to do postflop by Dan. Dan now overbets the pot. What hands can you put him on here? Considering your extrememly lag image a very wide range I would say. Dan uses his tight image to his advantage and is defintely going to try to exploit it against a LAG like you who will even laydown monsters in this situation.

AA-QQ, KQ, Q9, 89s, Any Jack, A Ten w/ an over, T3, 33, and a pure bluff.

I feel you give him credit for having a much narrower range of hands then he actually has. You were mainly concerned with 33, and while the TJ presents draws on the board from Dan’s POV I don't think it is likely he would push a set this hard since right now he has no information on the strength on your hand. With a raise this big he is likely to get you off a hand. With a smaller raise you will likely call and lead the turn. However, since this is being played on a very high level you get a lot what does he think, I think, he thinks, I think and on and on so reads, the players mindset, and all the previous hands become crucial but just viewing it on paper I’m trying to do what I can.

When the turn comes you lead again and Dan puts in a respectable raise. This narrowing his range down to:

AA-QQ, AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, J4, J3, T3, 33

The only hand in this range that beats us is 33, which I felt Dan wouldn’t be likely to play that way on the flop, but again I’m going from one cold hand with no other info so your reads are better then what I can say. The problem is the way this was played the only way to further define is to re-raise which will get AK-AJ, AA-QQ and leave the hands JT, J3, 33, and J4 and T3 which you hadn’t mentioned. I feel you’re ahead here. Regardless of what the river is it will likely be an expensive street to see the showdown and your fold came simply down to an ICM evaluation in your eyes, which I can understand, but I feel you made the incorrect choice.

I think you failed to define your hand and gave Harrington too much credit for a holding. I haven’t had any sleep in four days but once I’m rested I’ll post some potential alternative lines and do some work on the ICM (or someone else can save me the trouble and do all of this while I sleep) and everyone can go from there.


On a side note you’re somewhat of a professional idol to me so if you could let me know what you think of my reasoning now and in the future or just point out everything I type is incoherent babble that would be cool.

10-21-2005, 02:53 PM
I mean no offense, but Harrington outplayed Darrell on this hand.

zipppy
10-21-2005, 03:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I mean no offense, but Harrington outplayed Darrell on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably true, and also nothing to be ashamed of.

Tyler Durden
10-21-2005, 03:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If this was anyone but Gigabet there wouldn't even be a discussion except maybe to post this pic:

http://lightsout.onestop.net/noose.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

spot on

locutus2002
10-21-2005, 04:04 PM
I don't think Dan played that well. I think Darrell played the hand poorly.

Like many, I still am not sure if I believe this post because its so ... unsavory.

PickyTooth
10-21-2005, 04:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

What in the world kinda stupid post was that.

So you're saying you would rather see posts that have obvious answers ?

Ulysses
10-21-2005, 06:44 PM
I can only fold this hand against a very bad, very predictable, super-easy to read player. Against a decent player, I can't see this fold being good.

eastbay
10-21-2005, 07:11 PM
For the record, I don't understand this play at all.

eastbay

Nick M
10-21-2005, 07:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

good post pax. I totally agree.

lacky
10-21-2005, 07:42 PM
I don't have a problem believing it at all. This same tourney he busted a guy after calling a raise PF with 75o, last spring (I think) he busted out of a big tournement when he reraised all in against Gavin with nothing. Giga doesn't have a problem betting crap if he thinks it will work, and has been caught at it often enough that it can be accepted as fact. Givin that, there is no reason to no to believe him this time.

Steve

betgo
10-21-2005, 08:28 PM
Yeh, he probably did have 72o. I have been at his table a few times, and he seems to show down a lot of unsuited hands 8 high or lower. Part of it is he plays the situation and can read/bluff to get maximum value from a weak hand. However, I think he partly plays hands like that for psychological effect.

fnord_too
10-21-2005, 08:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I can only fold this hand against a very bad, very predictable, super-easy to read player. Against a decent player, I can't see this fold being good.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you play the rest of the hand here? Do you just push when it gets back to you on the turn? If not, what do you do on the river?

iMsoLucky0
10-21-2005, 11:25 PM
All of you are missing a very important aspect of this hand that seperates it from any hand that most of you have ever played. I don't necessarily agree with the hand, but I am open minded enough to see the reasons behind it.

mts
10-21-2005, 11:32 PM
lol.... PLEASE SHARE YOUR HIDDEN REASONS

they better not include:
not going broke in an unraised pot
still enough chips to play big stack poker
creating an image for later play
or anything else people have brought up.

Lets hear it.

bones
10-21-2005, 11:37 PM
I'm always amazed by the sense of entitlement people on this (and others) board have.

The answers don't have to be in the back of the book to make the problem worth attempting to solve.

10-21-2005, 11:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm always amazed by the sense of entitlement people on this (and others) board have.

The answers don't have to be in the back of the book to make the problem worth attempting to solve.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be so, but I nor the majority of the forum can simply come up with the answer to lucky's problem. It's like asking a 7th grader to solve a calculus problem.

Lucky, some hints would be nice.

Isura
10-22-2005, 12:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably donk it and just check/call all the way, maybe leading a little on the river. I wouldn't want to go broke in this spot, especially with those chips, but I still don't think I could fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why play this hand, or any hand for that for that matter, if you cannot get real value. If I am check calling, trying to get a cheap showdown, I add right around 10% to my stack(I imagine the pot would be around 12k at the showdown), that is for the times that I win. The times that I lose the hand, playing that way, I will lose more than 10% of my stack, because he is going to be betting more, making the pot larger, and allowing himself to make even larger bets on subsequent streets.

This line of play is a leak, that I see all of the time. Most players know that in situations where you are either way ahead or way behind, that it becomes obvious that either raising or folding is much better decision than all others if you could see the others cards. But since the cards cannot be seen, most players choose the middle ground, which is to call. That is faulty thinking, it is almost always better to pick one of the options that has a chance to be much better than all other possible decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how does calling the flop and donk-betting the turn gain the most value? Why didn't you reraise the flop or check/raise the turn then? Do you think Dan is paying off turn and river value bets with a worst hand? Do you think he is folding a better hand? I understand what you are saying about getting value, but I don't agree that your line gets the most value.

10-22-2005, 09:32 AM
It just seems that a tight thinking player would be willing to throw a lot of chips around in a blind to blind confrontation against you.

I personally think you made a mistake in calling his flop raise and leading the turn again. If you had the intent to do this, wouldn't reraising the flop help define both your hands a lot better?

But I think with the spot you got yourself into, the fold is correct becuase you have no good line for the river.

lorinda
10-22-2005, 10:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

Next Gigabet post should read something like this.

"1500 players left , Stars $11 rebuy. I have AA UTG first hand and I raise to 120 chips. The big blind reraises for his whole stack, and I call.

My reasoning in this spot was that a) I can rebuy and b) I know I have the best hand.

I hope that thinking about this play, particuarly the size of the preflop raise, will encourage others to think about new and challenging situations that they have never been in before."

Lori

betgo
10-22-2005, 11:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Next Gigabet post should read something like this.

"1500 players left , Stars $11 rebuy. I have AA UTG first hand and I raise to 120 chips. The big blind reraises for his whole stack, and I call.

My reasoning in this spot was that a) I can rebuy and b) I know I have the best hand.

I hope that thinking about this play, particuarly the size of the preflop raise, will encourage others to think about new and challenging situations that they have never been in before."

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. There are an awful lot of posts like the above and Gigabet does post interesting situations.

The 72o hand is quite possible given Gigabet's style. He certainly could have just been bluffing with some junk hand.

The Harrington hand, however, just doesn't make sense unless there is something everyone is missing. Gigabet is only behind a set. According to his book, Harrington randomizes his play, so he might have flat called with 33 or 44, but he probably would have raised. Secondly, Harrington's flop play does not seem likely with a set or a weak underpair. Thirdly, this is blind versus blind versus an aggressive bluffer, so Harrington could be bluffing or have the same or weaker 2 pair. Granted, the way Harrington is playing it, he has to have a big hand or be bluffing or semibluffing big.

The key questions are would Harrington play J3 or T3 this way? How likely is it that Harrington is bluffing or on a draw? Would Harrington play 33 or 44 this way?

If you are Harrington and you have J3, how worried are you? Gigabet didn't raise preflop, so he probably doesn't have a pair and a lot of people would raise with JT. Gigabet is aggressive, but unpredictable, so 33, 44, and JT are possible, but unlikely.

I also think there is a good chance Harrington would play a straight draw this way, given Harrington's TAG style and Gigabet's reputation. He also likes to use his tight image to make big bluffs against LAGs.

It seems like the possibilities of a weaker 2 pair or a bluff or semibluff are more likely than a set.

zipppy
10-22-2005, 12:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
All of you are missing a very important aspect of this hand that seperates it from any hand that most of you have ever played. I don't necessarily agree with the hand, but I am open minded enough to see the reasons behind it.

[/ QUOTE ]

such as, playing against Dan Harrington? quite different, indeed!

after dan's raise: ~58K in pot
left to call: 18K
Giga's stack-18K= ~82K

I think that Giga would have to raise all in just to deny dan pot odds for most drawing hands, and perhaps that isn't wise at this stage in the mtt. I know people aren't thinking that dan has something along those lines, but against someone like giga, playing a drawing hand aggressively might be the correct play. just thought I'd throw that out there.

betgo
10-22-2005, 12:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
such as, playing against Dan Harrington? quite different, indeed!

after dan's raise: ~58K in pot
left to call: 18K
Giga's stack-18K= ~82K

I think that Giga would have to raise all in just to deny dan pot odds for most drawing hands, and perhaps that isn't wise at this stage in the mtt. I know people aren't thinking that dan has something along those lines, but against someone like giga, playing a drawing hand aggressively might be the correct play. just thought I'd throw that out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you should fold top 2 pair on the turn, because you might be up against a straight draw?

zipppy
10-22-2005, 12:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
such as, playing against Dan Harrington? quite different, indeed!

after dan's raise: ~58K in pot
left to call: 18K
Giga's stack-18K= ~82K

I think that Giga would have to raise all in just to deny dan pot odds for most drawing hands, and perhaps that isn't wise at this stage in the mtt. I know people aren't thinking that dan has something along those lines, but against someone like giga, playing a drawing hand aggressively might be the correct play. just thought I'd throw that out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you should fold top 2 pair on the turn, because you might be up against a straight draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know what I'm saying. :P

betgo
10-22-2005, 12:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what I'm saying. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously.

zipppy
10-22-2005, 12:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what I'm saying. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

just trying to figure out the rationale of someone who plays levels MUCH higher than i do /images/graemlins/grin.gif

lorinda
10-22-2005, 12:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what I'm saying. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

just trying to figure out the rationale of someone who plays levels MUCH higher than i do /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting the right answer is not as important as doing the thinking.

Lori

bones
10-22-2005, 12:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Getting the right answer is not as important as doing the thinking.


[/ QUOTE ]

This should be stickied.

pergesu
10-22-2005, 01:58 PM
This is a situation where Dan's image can be utilized to the absolute max. In this blind confrontation, there's no show of strength at all. Given that you're a self-admitted LAG, of which Dan should be aware after the hands you've shown down, he's got no reason to believe you're not betting air. In a situation like this, whoever shows the most strength is going to be the most likely to take it down, and nobody would believe you've got a strong hand and nobody would doubt that he has something. This is as a result of the images you guys have created for yourselves, and he's taking advantage of it - in my mind, you aren't.

Also there's one consideration that nobody has brought up yet, and that's the incredible benefit of eliminating/crippling an opponent as tough as Dan. That benefit should be obvious if he has the ability to put you to decisions as tough as this (which I don't think is all that tough, but if he tests you like this, it's to your advantage to get rid of him).

Basically I think that in this situation image is going to play a huge role, and Dan capitalized on this 100%.

For all the incredible, ballsy, tough plays you're willing to make...why don't you give yourself a break every once in a while and win some (comparably) easy hands?

10-22-2005, 02:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is a situation where Dan's image can be utilized to the absolute max. In this blind confrontation, there's no show of strength at all. Given that you're a self-admitted LAG, of which Dan should be aware after the hands you've shown down, he's got no reason to believe you're not betting air. In a situation like this, whoever shows the most strength is going to be the most likely to take it down, and nobody would believe you've got a strong hand and nobody would doubt that he has something. This is as a result of the images you guys have created for yourselves, and he's taking advantage of it - in my mind, you aren't.

Also there's one consideration that nobody has brought up yet, and that's the incredible benefit of eliminating/crippling an opponent as tough as Dan. That benefit should be obvious if he has the ability to put you to decisions as tough as this (which I don't think is all that tough, but if he tests you like this, it's to your advantage to get rid of him).

Basically I think that in this situation image is going to play a huge role, and Dan capitalized on this 100%.

For all the incredible, ballsy, tough plays you're willing to make...why don't you give yourself a break every once in a while and win some (comparably) easy hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

NFH!!!

gumpzilla
10-22-2005, 02:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]

For all the incredible, ballsy, tough plays you're willing to make...why don't you give yourself a break every once in a while and win some (comparably) easy hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he does. They just don't make good fanboy material and thus you don't hear about them.

pokerlaw
10-22-2005, 04:16 PM
So...was thinking about this hand and: if Giga was planning on betting the turn like he did, why not use those t12,000 chips reraise Harrington on the flop?

stanzee
10-22-2005, 04:44 PM
I haven't read past the 1st page of this thread because i don't need to, and the only reason i'm replying to this is because for some reason this thread has attracted much attention. Basically, in a battle of the blinds, which this is, the only hand that has you beat is 33 or 44 by the turn. If Harry has JJ or TT he would have most likely raised when you completed (i'm sure others will argue against this assumption). If it was me i'm going to the wire with this hand re-raising, and i dont give a fck about reputations as this is too strong a hand for a battle of the blinds.

Yours,
The Special One

lwspoker69
10-22-2005, 04:51 PM
this thread is just gigabet's +ev way to make you guys think he does this sort of stuff. it's all a sham!

Nick M
10-23-2005, 01:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Getting the right answer is not as important as doing the thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

DCJ311
10-27-2005, 02:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]


Gigabet bets 12,000
Dan Harrington raises to 30,000
Gigabet folds



[/ QUOTE ]

Is this thread a joke? this is a horrible fold, if I ever make this bad of a fold please kill me immediately.

Iamafish
10-27-2005, 02:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Gigabet bets 12,000
Dan Harrington raises to 30,000
Gigabet folds



[/ QUOTE ]

Is this thread a joke? this is a horrible fold, if I ever make this bad of a fold please kill me immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much did you cash for in that tournament?

good2cu
10-27-2005, 04:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
this thread is just gigabet's +ev way to make you guys think he does this sort of stuff. it's all a sham!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to think this about all of gigabet's posts where he posts actual hands.