Top two on 4 flush/straight board.

[Jeff W]

Villain is 24/20/2.4 over 400

Hold'em (6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

[TStoneMBD]

i dont think there is any other way to play the flop and the turn. river is the hardest street, but i also call against a player who as aggressive as he is.

[ALL1N]

Betting the turn solves a lot of problems.

[TStoneMBD]

with a 4 outter you prefer betting the turn, calling a raise and folding the river unimproved? dont you think a player as aggressive as villain will be bluffing that line more often then value you get on a bet?

[ALL1N]

I fold to the turn raise. I think it's extremely rare the other dude will have any less than 2 pair here. If he has 2 pair (the only hand we're afraid of him "bluffing"), he'll be so focused on hitting his 4 outer that he won't raise in fear of a 3-bet. IMO.

edit- I've just thought about this more. I don't like my line anymore. We have to call a raise because of split outs. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Jeff W]

What about check-call, then check-fold? Is this opponent really betting w/ two pair on the river?

[ALL1N]

Yeah I reckon he would bet KQ again fairly often. So, 2 bets. And I think the 2 bets are better spent bet/calling the turn and folding UI as TStone said.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
What about check-call, then check-fold? Is this opponent really betting w/ two pair on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I specifically remember a post on 2+2 where people bet this river w/ 2 pair "to push people off of a 1 card baby frush". I know they were in position heads up because they weren't using Clarkmeisters theorem as their justification. If the archive search engine didn't suck so badly I would pull up the link.

If their play was correct or not isn't an issue. I'm just saying I saw people post it and I remember being shocked. I'm pretty sure it was a 15/30 full game.

[bobbyi]

I think this is good. The river here is definitely a tough spot.

[Victor]

looks like a river fold i wish i could make.

Call or CR the river depending on if he can make tough folds.

Good chance he has a straight and doesnt fear the flush because your 3bet range isnt likely to contain many clubs.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]

Good chance he has a straight and doesnt fear the flush because your 3bet range isnt likely to contain many clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very key. He has to think you don't have a club. Also:

321 games 0.016 secs 20,062 games/sec

Board: Kc Qc Ac Jc 3h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 47.6636 % [ 00.48 00.00 ] { AA-44, AQs-A8s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, 98s, AQo-A9o, KQo-KJo }
Hand 2: 52.3364 % [ 00.52 00.00 ] { AKs }

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 47.6636 % [ 00.48 00.00 ] { AA-44, AQs-A8s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, 98s, AQo-A9o, KQo-KJo }

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this hand range have to do with anything?

[Schizo]

Eh... it wasn't supposed to have the capping hands in it. I just plugged in the hands I would raise in the MP with in a 6 handed game but not cap. The hands that didn't hit the board could all have a club in it. If you want me to adjust the range I will. If you do a stove yourself please share. :-)


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

98 games 0.005 secs 19,600 games/sec

Board: Kc Qc Ac Jc 3h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 45.9184 % [ 00.46 00.00 ] { TT-33, AQs-A8s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AQo-A9o, KQo-KJo }
Hand 2: 54.0816 % [ 00.54 00.00 ] { AsKs }

[redbeard]

i'll apologize in advance here for being ignorant of reading the numbers you got from poker stove, but don't they advocate calling it down since we win 54% and since i wouldn't feel comfortable betting and calling a raise.

[ALL1N]

There's been some shocking stoving going around lately, but I think this one takes the cake as the worst. Sorry bro.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
There's been some shocking stoving going around lately, but I think this one takes the cake as the worst. Sorry bro.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for letting me know why.

[Poldi]

I like it. There are very few clubs he might hold because the 4 highest are on board. I think hands like 99-22 with a club in it he wouldnt raise the flop because he knows this board hits a preflopreraiser almost every time and you arent folding.
On the turn he knows its unlikely for you to have the flush too so he can bet 2pair for value. The river doesnt change anything, he is very aggressive, I like the call.

[ALL1N]

Because it doesn't take into account how the villain played the hand postflop.

[Poldi]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the turn solves a lot of problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want him to fold his worse hands because there are a lot of outs where you split? (any club, any T = 13 split outs)
He wont have many outs to win when behind (he ll win only by making trips so he probably has 2 outs to win).
If he is ahead, he will raise (maybe not with just the straight) and you have to call. Aggressive as he is, I am not sure if we can completely forget about a bluffraise.
Therefore I like a check-call on the turn.
On the river I think its all about if he is capable of bluff-raising this without the straight or flush. If he isnt, I´d bet-fold because he might have bet his QJ 2pair on the turn but he probably wont bet it again on the river. If I´m not sure if he may bluffraise me (especially since check-calling the turn and then betting the river when it clearly is a blank is pretty weird), I like the check-call.
Is there any situation where you check-call the turn and bet-fold the river without having improved?
I think raises on the river are way less often bluffs as there is no semibluff possible and you know its just 1 bet left to showdown and not possibly 2 like against a turnraise.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think hands like 99-22 with a club in it he wouldnt raise the flop because he knows this board hits a preflopreraiser almost every time and you arent folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even for a free card play? I know I'd raise the flop with a 8 or 9 of clubs. Since villian 3 bet PF I think the odds of him not having a club are very high. So who knows how low I'd go when at the table. And on the turn I'd be very happy holding a 2 of clubs. I guess it depends on if I know I can get the person to check the turn or not.