Five tools in limit Hold'em....rate them 1-5

[mtdoak]

Hand Reading

Mathmatical Knowledge

Using Position (both relative and absolute)

Adjusting to Game conditions (i.e. playing optimally for your table)

Emotional Control (keeping your play optimal under bad beats/good runs)


My thoughts:
5. Emotional control: in most cases, running tilty can usually be corrected within a session. But, emotional control is really dependent on the person. If you piss away 30 BB every time you get runner runner'd, well, this is a much bigger issue.
4. Hand reading. Being able to construct what a player has from his actions is a powerful tool, but really only an estimating tool.
3. Adjusting to game conditions. Being able to adjust your game properly to game conditions is a hallmark of a good player.
2. Mathmatical knowledge: An essential piece, esp being able to compute correct odds on the fly. However, this does not give you a decided edge over good players (but a massive one over bad ones)
1. Position. Knowing how and when to use it, combined with the other skills here, IMHO, is undoubtedly the most powerful tool in limit hold'em.

[blackize]

Not reading your thoughts yet so I dont influence my decision.

1. Adjusting to game conditions: You can't win without doing it. I think it is the most under rated skill in all of poker
2. Using Position: BIG deal
3. Emotional Control: For me this is big, I have a bit of trouble realizing when I am on tilt.
4. Hand Reading: It is very tough to win against players who arent brain dead without it
5. Mathematical knowledge: It's important, but too many situations are obvious even without knowledge of the odds

[NMcNasty]

5. Adjusting to game conditions: I think this might be overrated. For example at a table with bad players you can loosen up and play AJo and maybe ATo from early position, but no matter the game you still can't go as low as A9o. Its not that much of a difference.

4. Hand Reading: players that are bad have a wide range of garbage hands they could be playing so its difficult to get a read. Players that are good are on a smaller range of hands but are usually smart enough to mix up their play so you still can't get a decent read.

3. Position: obviously very important

2. Mathematical knowledge: extremely important in limit

1. Emotional control: It doesn't matter how good you are at poker if you go on tilt and blow away everything you've earned. If you're on tilt you are basically disregarding all of the other four tools listed.

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]
5. Adjusting to game conditions: I think this might be overrated. For example at a table with bad players you can loosen up and play AJo and maybe ATo from early position, but no matter the game you still can't go as low as A9o. Its not that much of a difference.

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Well it really does depend on the game. I mainly play shorthanded and that gets me adapting to game conditions much more so than at a full ring game.

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4. Hand Reading: players that are bad have a wide range of garbage hands they could be playing so its difficult to get a read. Players that are good are on a smaller range of hands but are usually smart enough to mix up their play so you still can't get a decent read.


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You can still get reads on the bad players by their betting patterns, and same with the better players. Very good players are very tough to read, but it is possible.

[Pog0]

1. Mathematical knowledge.
2. Position. Some of this is covered in mathematical knowledge, esp. preflop.
3. Hand knowledge, although some of this is covered in mathematical knowledge.
4. Adjusting to game conditions.

Emotional control shouldn't be on the list. It's not a tool, it's just the absence of a big and pointless leak that's not really related to the game but rather your personality.

[blackize]

EVERYONE has to deal with their emotions at the table. Some people are naturally averse to tilt, but most have to work to stay cool while playing.

I think they build on each other.
1. Mathmatical Knowledge - without the basics, you will never succeed at poker.
2. Emotional Control - a clear head will prepare you for making good decisions as often as possible.
3. (not on your list) Book Smarts / Hand Review - the ability to step back from the game and learn strategy is essential for maximizing your ability to utilize the remainder of the tools.
4. Adjusting to game conditions / knowing when to leave the game - keeping yourself in profitable situations ensures that you make good decisions and profit from those decisions
5. Using Position / Hand Reading - It's a tie for these last skills that should be added to your repertoire. These are most effective when applied together.

[D.H.]

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Well it really does depend on the game. I mainly play shorthanded...

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This is an important factor. The lists of full-ring players will have mathematical skills high up and the lists of shorthanded players will have hand reading and adjusting to game conditions high up.

Emotional control and position is of course very important in both.

[POKhER]

*GRUNCHED*

1, Hand Reading
2, Using Position (both relative and absolute)
3, Adjusting to Game conditions (i.e. playing optimally for your table)
4, Emotional Control (keeping your play optimal under bad beats/good runs)
5, Mathmatical Knowledge


Hand reading - Knowing what the op has is SOOO VITAL.

Postion, As its the next best thign to hand selection its great to abuse.

Adjusting to games - You can win if you "adjust" i.e. loosen up or tighten up. If you play your standard game i reckon you can win any many conditions.

Mathmatical knowledge - Adding/Subtracting/Division is basic... The EV and the outs etc gets more advanced but its hardly Alevel is it.

Emotional control - Losing and tilting is bad, I vote this accordingly.

[BillFranklin]

1. Mathmatical Knowledge- Essential for limit holdem.

2. Emotional Control (keeping your play optimal under bad beats/good runs)- This is so important for playing limit where there is often a high variance.

3. Using Position (both relative and absolute). Important in any limit.

4. Adjusting to Game conditions (i.e. playing optimally
for your table)

5. Hand Reading- Don't think this is as important in limit (in particular low limit) since your basically playing your own hand opposed to no limit where your playing your opponents hand.

[ QUOTE ]

1, Hand Reading
2, Using Position (both relative and absolute)
3, Adjusting to Game conditions (i.e. playing optimally for your table)
4, Emotional Control (keeping your play optimal under bad beats/good runs)
5, Mathmatical Knowledge

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I find it interesting that your list is the exact opposite of my list. I think that your scale is one where 1 is the most important for pushing marginal edges and 5 is the most important for maximizing large edges.

[ZenMusician]

1. sfer
2. xTKOx
3. .....oh you meant, like, skills....sorry.

-ZEN

( /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

[Lash]

Interesting post…

You could argue endlessly regarding the value and importance of the 5 tools / skills you list. For what it’s worth, here are my thoughts and arguments…

1) Emotional Control - Hands down most important in my book…It is essential for profitable decision making - the heart of every solid players game. Without emotional control and / or a great understanding of it… all other skills in your list lose value, potentially becoming meaningless. Even if you logically know what to do in a situation, you start not doing it when your emotions are in control.

2) Position – Has extremely valuable applications in every situation you encounter, an understanding of position can potentially make up for other costly leaks in a players game… this alone speaks to the importance / value of understanding position.

3) Hand Reading – Has big value to a player, allowing you to save and earn extra bets in many different ways. Not as important as positional understanding…simply because it’s not as applicable in as many situations.

4) Adjusting to game conditions – In my opinion, a player who adjusts properly to game conditions has one huge advantage over one who does not… He will on average be involved in profitable situations more often than the next guy – However, most (not all) adjusting takes place in the form of pre-flop adjustments. This will only get you so far, and is not a substitute for the top 3 tools / skills I listed. In other words, I think your average new player would be better off mastering my top 3: Emotional Control, Position, and Hand Reading, before trying to vary from any sort of base line strategy, or “A” game based on game conditions.

5) Mathematical knowledge – I understand that a player with superb math skills has a grasp of something extremely important and valuable in limit poker. But in my opinion… math knowledge beyond basic math skills loses value progressively in poker. I think it’s safe to say that in general, the more complicated / advanced a math skill is the more difficult it is to implement into your decision making process. I also feel that there is generally a parallel between how basic a math skill is, and how readily applicable it is in your decision making process. In other words, we can only factor in so much in the heat of the moment… we are all only human. For your average (and even above average) poker player, basic math decisions have more value and come up more often than any sort of advanced mathematics. Most of us can attain this basic math knowledge if we don’t already have it. Even if we don’t have basic math skills, there are many other skills in poker that mask a lack of math knowledge (feel, the above listed 4 tools etc.).

I've read all the posts and think I understand each of your reasoning.

I'd like to know if any of you think the limits have an effect on your thinking. For instance, Position.

Since moving, I can now only play 3/6, 4/8 and occasionally 5/10. The Button in 3/6 or 4/8 has practically no advantage except that I can raise or re-raise when I've got power. At 5/10 it begins to become important.

Thoughts or further discussion? TIA

I know this is not on your list but you forgot the absolute most important skill is GAME SELECTION.

1. Game selection...no fish casino is only winner!!!!!!!!!
2. Using Position (both relative and absolute)
3. Adjusting to Game conditions.
4. Hand Reading
5. Emotional Control (keeping your play optimal under bad beats/good runs)
6. Mathematical knowledge, memorizing an odds chart is all that is really needed for most situations...

I will say that I think this list can be different for different people. If you are a tight player who plays the same types of strong hands only in position, you will not have to adjust as much. If you are apt to go on tilt then emotional control could be number 1......one tilty session can take a long time to overcome...

[wadea]

Everybody is rating mathematical knowledge too low. Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's not important. I think if you no longer had any mathematical skill you would be worse off than if you were lacking any of these other skills. ESPECIALLY since we're talking about LIMIT poker. All the others are built on a foundation of math that is taken for granted.

1. Math
2. Emotional control - lose control emotionally and you often make math mistakes (and others)
3. Position - i hope we all know the value of position by now
4. Hand reading
5. Adjusting to game conditions - remember, we're talking about LIMIT poker here

-w.a.

Note: I primarily play shorthanded limit

[ QUOTE ]
1. sfer
2. xTKOx
3. .....oh you meant, like, skills....sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least I'm still behind sfer. That'll change soon, I promise. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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Everybody is rating mathematical knowledge too low. Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's not important. I think if you no longer had any mathematical skill you would be worse off than if you were lacking any of these other skills. ESPECIALLY since we're talking about LIMIT poker. All the others are built on a foundation of math that is taken for granted.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think everyone would agree that starting at the low limits and moving up gradually through the mid limits is the best way to succeed at the high limits. This means that the skills that you master at the lower limits are the most fundamental to the quality of your play. As you move up in limits, you slowly need to deviate from those fundamentals in order to stay a winning player and increase your dollar rate, but, like wadea said, this doesn't make the fundamentals any less important.

Because you are always at the mercy of the deck, and the cards that come out are dictated by probability, understanding the math behind situations will always guide you to a set of correct decisions. If you have Ah2h on a 2-heart board, then you know you are drawing to the flush and that it is approximately 4:1 to hit. Math. If the pot is offering you 2:1, then there is no way you can draw to your hand unless... a) you are ahead or b) you suspect your opponent is weak and might fold her hand. This is where the latter four items on the list come into play.

In loose games with 6 players to every flop, you can't reasonably expect your hand to be ahead here, nor is it likely that everyone will fold to pressure, so you need to fall back on your math skills. In tighter, more aggressive games, you need to understand what your opponents are thinking and what cards they might be holding. This depends on the character of the game, how you have been playing, and how your opponents have been playing.

Your most profitable situations are dictated by pure mathematics. As the situations become more marginal, it becomes more important to have control over your decisions as you read your opponents.

[Borno]

from least important to most:

5. Adjusting to game conditions: we all do this consciously or unconsciously. Its important to know how to adjust properly but as long as you dont let your emotions get ahold of you, you are probably adjusting fine.

4. using position: this is important. But using position does not allow you to play "properly" it is merely an extra finer edge that will help improve your game.

3. hand reading: You need to know when your ahead and when your behind. This is done by using math to weigh the probabilities of your opponents hand. When do you charge more for a draw, when do you take a free showdown, when do you c/c c/c b/f. hand reading is the most important poker skill.. like 90% of 2+2ers this is under used and not enough emphasis is put on it. Range range range!

2. mathematical knowledge: this is the main tenet of poker. you must know the math and odds to succeed long term - period.



1. emotional control: Regardless of knowing how to play or extracting the finest edges using the most precise math, if your spewing because of tilt your skills are useless. You must have emotional and bank roll control - for those nay sayers that believe BR control isn't important in control you are flat out wrong - if you begin to earn huge you have an inflated evaluation of your skill, you'll go bust. If your Stu Unger all the math, hand reading, use of position, and adjusting to the game in the world won't help you. You'll still go bust.

edit: making is easier to read because I think I'm the most correct /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
edit edit: stu unger analogy

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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5. Adjusting to game conditions: I think this might be overrated. For example at a table with bad players you can loosen up and play AJo and maybe ATo from early position, but no matter the game you still can't go as low as A9o. Its not that much of a difference.


[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't read rest of thread, but saw this. It is terribly wrong. A9o is of course bad to open from UTG with at tight tables, but i.e. K10s or 87s is +EV if the table is weak-tight. In addition, at some tables you may have a super-LAG behind you who will go to showdown with every hand, and openraise from UTG with Q10o since you know he will raise you and scare out the others. My opinion is that most players (not necessarily 2+2'ers) adjust way too little to table conditions.