An aggressivly played 55

[ggbman]

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

River: (14 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Villian was unknown.

[baronzeus]

i play it the same. more often than not BB will have a flush draw and SB will have a 2 or some other random crap.

[ggbman]

I guess this isnt interesting /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[oreogod]

Nice Hand. I also play the same. Hope u took it down.

[etizzle]

i like this so long as you dont give any more action after your turn raise. If any more bets go in on the turn then i'd say you can let it go, as theres no way the BB would do it with just a 2.

Overall though youre right, not too interesting. It's probably close between just calling down and raising the turn as it looks like SB only has 3 outs and BB is never folding anything we beat.

This line is probably best though, as it lets you make the SB pay 2 bets on the turn if he is the one with the draw, and its remotely possible that you got him off 66-88.

[Surfbullet]

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i play it the same. more often than not BB will have a flush draw and SB will have a 2 or some other random crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we're saying either player can have a 2 then we've got to acknowledege that either player can have a 4. BB capped after getting 3bet over 2 different flop aggressors. I can definitely see the argument that a flop jammer will do this with a FD, but we are barely ahead of a FD on the flop b/c everyone has overcards to us, and our reverse implied odds are huge when we are ahead.

Now i'm not saying i'd fold the flop, because the pot is big. The turn is standard too because at that point we've bloated the pot enormously and have to protect our hand / give ourself a chance to fold out a better hand behind us (small PP T &gt;&gt; PP &gt;&gt; 5).

The whole thing looks like spewage though, I don't think it's that clear-cut.

Surf

Am I the only guy that generally throws away pocket 5s second in?

[sthief09]

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Am I the only guy that generally throws away pocket 5s second in?

[/ QUOTE ]


hopefully

[ALL1N]

Preflop I'd usually limp. Postflop I play the same.

[sthief09]

BIG POT LIMIT TEXAS HOLD THEM

[baronzeus]

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i play it the same. more often than not BB will have a flush draw and SB will have a 2 or some other random crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we're saying either player can have a 2 then we've got to acknowledege that either player can have a 4. BB capped after getting 3bet over 2 different flop aggressors. I can definitely see the argument that a flop jammer will do this with a FD, but we are barely ahead of a FD on the flop b/c everyone has overcards to us, and our reverse implied odds are huge when we are ahead.

Now i'm not saying i'd fold the flop, because the pot is big. The turn is standard too because at that point we've bloated the pot enormously and have to protect our hand / give ourself a chance to fold out a better hand behind us (small PP T &gt;&gt; PP &gt;&gt; 5).

The whole thing looks like spewage though, I don't think it's that clear-cut.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

all im saying, is that a 4 is much less likely a) by bayes and b) because who the hell (besides me) fastplays flopped trips?

[surfdoc]

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Preflop I'd usually limp. Postflop I play the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that has to be the worst of the 3 options preflop. (although how tight the blinds are has some influence) Lets get this headsup with position.

[ALL1N]

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Lets get this headsup with position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your optimism is admirable.

[sthief09]

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Preflop I'd usually limp. Postflop I play the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that has to be the worst of the 3 options preflop. (although how tight the blinds are has some influence) Lets get this headsup with position.

[/ QUOTE ]


how often do you raelly get it headsup? raising and calling should run pretty close together, with folding being pretty bad, as it almost always is for one bet on the button with a pocket pair

[TStoneMBD]

who the players are depends entirely on whether a limp or raise is right. neither is always right.

i usually limp myself. id have to be certain that the limper had an overpair to consider folding.

[Subfallen]

It should be noted that your opponents probably have around 20 outs against you on the flop. If folding is a mistake, it's not a big one. But 3-betting is still better.

[deepsquat]

[ QUOTE ]
It should be noted that your opponents probably have around 20 outs against you on the flop. If folding is a mistake, it's not a big one. But 3-betting is still better.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Victor]

do you guys limp 88 too. when do you raise?

heres the thing. if you raise you make more when you miss. if you dont raise your sets make more.

where is the cutoff point? i dunno. i just raise bc its fun.

[surfdoc]

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Preflop I'd usually limp. Postflop I play the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that has to be the worst of the 3 options preflop. (although how tight the blinds are has some influence) Lets get this headsup with position.

[/ QUOTE ]


how often do you raelly get it headsup? raising and calling should run pretty close together, with folding being pretty bad, as it almost always is for one bet on the button with a pocket pair

[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad you guys are arguing this because sometimes I feel like I am regurgitating the standard line even if I don't always believe or understand it. Isn't playing small pockets versus 3-4 opponents the kind of thing that 2+2 books advise against?

As I said before the players in the blinds affect the decision but isn't the chance of getting at least one blind out and having initiative worth 1 extra SB?

[ggbman]

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Preflop I'd usually limp. Postflop I play the same.

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I think that has to be the worst of the 3 options preflop. (although how tight the blinds are has some influence) Lets get this headsup with position.

[/ QUOTE ]


how often do you raelly get it headsup? raising and calling should run pretty close together, with folding being pretty bad, as it almost always is for one bet on the button with a pocket pair

[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad you guys are arguing this because sometimes I feel like I am regurgitating the standard line even if I don't always believe or understand it. Isn't playing small pockets versus 3-4 opponents the kind of thing that 2+2 books advise against?

As I said before the players in the blinds affect the decision but isn't the chance of getting at least one blind out and having initiative worth 1 extra SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is, which is why i raised /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TStoneMBD]

i dont think there is much equity difference in raising or limping 55 out of context, but when you apply it to situations there is. everyone has different cutoffs for raising limpers with pairs. against a limper 55 isnt that much different than 22. would you raise a limper with 22? if hes loose enough that he could have a 4 or smaller in his hand than the potential for dominating him is there.

for me, my standards, and im not saying they are right, are probably that i limp with 55 a bit more often than i raise there, i raise 66 a bit more often than i limp and i almost always raise 77. the likelihood that the opponent is holding an undercard to your pair goes up expotentially as the size of the pair increases because 6x is more likely than 4x. likewise, if you are holding 77 its more likely that the BB will defend against your raise with a 6 in his hand than a 4. however, i do of course know that this is not the only reason why youd raise these pairs preflop.

getting the bb to fold is a huge part. if you inflate the pot with a small pair facing all overcards, you are letting your opponents play hit or miss against you which will allow them to play correctly unless they are the type to fold or call with their overcards without regards to pot odds.

Isoraising with 55 usually sucks at this level, everyone defends.

I'd sometimes raise if i have been playing very tight and am getting respect but otherwise fold or call.

Turn raise is pretty funky most times he will have a 4 (yes people fastplay), a bigger PP or a flushdraw with overcards.

With SB calling all those bets he will usually have something good.

I really dont see any hand that you beat bluffing the river so I doubt the turn raise is effective here especially when SB could be sitting there with a 4.

I'd be looking to dump this unimproved on the turn.

[sthief09]

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Preflop I'd usually limp. Postflop I play the same.

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I think that has to be the worst of the 3 options preflop. (although how tight the blinds are has some influence) Lets get this headsup with position.

[/ QUOTE ]


how often do you raelly get it headsup? raising and calling should run pretty close together, with folding being pretty bad, as it almost always is for one bet on the button with a pocket pair

[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad you guys are arguing this because sometimes I feel like I am regurgitating the standard line even if I don't always believe or understand it. Isn't playing small pockets versus 3-4 opponents the kind of thing that 2+2 books advise against?

As I said before the players in the blinds affect the decision but isn't the chance of getting at least one blind out and having initiative worth 1 extra SB?

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that applies more to bigger pairs like JJ-88. here, one disadvantage of raising is that it you force yourself to play at pretty much any flop. if you just limp, you can be more discretionary. you also diminish your set value by effectively cutting the value of your implied odds in half.

that said, I generally raise, but by no means do I think it's clear cut as long as you're seeing a flop

[sthief09]

you never say anything about calling, so I'm assuming you don't like it, and I agree. for the same price to get to showdown, you might as well improve your chances of winning, and maybe even fold out a slightly bigger pair from the sb.

I think folding is crazy in a pot that big. some guys are so aggressive without much, like top pair or a flush draw, so there's a reasonable chance he's ahead.

[sthief09]

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It should be noted that your opponents probably have around 20 outs against you on the flop. If folding is a mistake, it's not a big one. But 3-betting is still better.

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I think you're underestimating both the chances he has the best hand and the size of the pot, and way overestimating the number of outs they ahve. TWENTY? how is that even possible?

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As I said before the players in the blinds affect the decision but isn't the chance of getting at least one blind out and having initiative worth 1 extra SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, the problem with small PPs is that your only draw is to a set so if you get raised on the flop you normally have to dump it.

With a hand like say QTs at least you will have overcards and other draws a lot of the time so that when they are raising a draw for a freecard you can see the next card a lot of the time.

With a hand like 55 you cant do much against aggression and at 30/60 the players are considerably aggressive.

[Victor]

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i dont think there is much equity difference in raising or limping 55 out of context, but when you apply it to situations there is.

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so you are saying that against certain opponents raising is better than against certain other opps?

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veryone has different cutoffs for raising limpers with pairs. against a limper 55 isnt that much different than 22. would you raise a limper with 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

55 is incredibly different than 22. i think pokerstove or whatever you kids use will tell you the same. im not good with computers so im not gonna bother.

[ QUOTE ]
for me, my standards, and im not saying they are right, are probably that i limp with 55 a bit more often than i raise there, i raise 66 a bit more often than i limp and i almost always raise 77. the likelihood that the opponent is holding an undercard to your pair goes up expotentially as the size of the pair increases because 6x is more likely than 4x. likewise, if you are holding 77 its more likely that the BB will defend against your raise with a 6 in his hand than a 4

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes sense but it is clearly player dependant. what is the range my opp will defend with? what is my equity vs. random hands (pokerstove)?

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however, i do of course know that this is not the only reason why youd raise these pairs preflop.

getting the bb to fold is a huge part. if you inflate the pot with a small pair facing all overcards, you are letting your opponents play hit or miss against you which will allow them to play correctly unless they are the type to fold or call with their overcards without regards to pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

all good points but i think you incorrectly take into account initiative. i would prefer my opponent to play hit or miss against me. its cool when he calls pf with 89 and folds when the flop is 33j or calls with kq and folds to a 78a board. initiative wins pots. many pots. but not big pots.

if your opponents are calling you on these boards with such hands then raising is clearly bad. however if they are folding their jqs on a 1043 board then it is better to raise.

The problem with calling is that you have SB still in the pot. The pot was capped remember and you have a low pair which is likely already beat. They have to have something so unless one has a flushdraw and the other a 2 you arent looking too good.

Plus there is a decent chance that SB check/raises the turn which will force you to fold.

[bobbyi]

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Isn't playing small pockets versus 3-4 opponents the kind of thing that 2+2 books advise against?

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It depends on the game. In some games, you will rarely get it heads up here and playing this in three- or four-handed raised pot is a pain. They'll check to you on the flop whether they hit or not and you usually have to bet, and most of the time one of them has sort of pair bigger than yours by the flop and isn't going away so you've invested three bets in this pot and you are drawing to two outs. In a lot of games like this, it plays out better if you take the flop cheaply without the initiative.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
do you guys limp 88 too.

[/ QUOTE ]
88 is much stronger here. I think it is a clear raise in this spot in any game I've ever played.

[TStoneMBD]

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so you are saying that against certain opponents raising is better than against certain other opps?

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely

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if your opponents are calling you on these boards with such hands then raising is clearly bad. however if they are folding their jqs on a 1043 board then it is better to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

precisely. this is why i included the words "without regards to pot odds." of course, this could mean many things and doesnt really portray what i want it to. i think a vital importance to consider when raising these type of hands is the likelyhood that the opponent will proceed with overcards on poor boards with correct odds against your hand when its bad to proceed against your normal hand range. likewise, if players fold good overcards on raggedy boards then your postflop fold equity is good there is well.

another thing i have to consider with situations like this is how many barrels to i have to fire with my pair to know when its no longer good? some opponents will let you know immediately when they checkraise. other opponents will just checkcall their pairs and they extract 1.5BBs off you rather than those who checkraise who extract .5. by raising preflop youre pretty much commiting yourself to a showdown against most opponents who checkcall, and you will be bleeding chips when they fold their nonpair hands on appropriate boards.

[krishanleong]

I fold preflop. If you limp you get 3-1 but sometimes you face a raise behind. You have to make up over 5 sb postflop. If you raise you get to play a small pair against 2-3. Sweet.

That said I do raise and call sometimes, but folding is my default.

Krishan

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop. If you limp you get 3-1 but sometimes you face a raise behind. You have to make up over 5 sb postflop. If you raise you get to play a small pair against 2-3. Sweet.

That said I do raise and call sometimes, but folding is my default.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but i think you can make 5SB postflop when you hit a set about 100% of the time.

[Noodles]

I dont get the turn raise at all against someone that capped the flop and still bets into the turn,do you really think your hand is best here,will you get a better hand to fold,doubtful.
if there is a chance he is manically bluffing then just let him bluff,why try to fold a bluffer?

what am i missing here?

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]

all im saying, is that a 4 is much less likely a) by bayes and b) because who the hell (besides me) fastplays flopped trips?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fastplay flopped trips often against a guy who has shown he'll shove this many chips in with a small pocket overpair.

[krishanleong]

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I fold preflop. If you limp you get 3-1 but sometimes you face a raise behind. You have to make up over 5 sb postflop. If you raise you get to play a small pair against 2-3. Sweet.

That said I do raise and call sometimes, but folding is my default.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but i think you can make 5SB postflop when you hit a set about 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you run a filter? PT, 3-4 see the flop, no preflop raise, pp 22-66?

Krishan

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no offense, but i think you can make 5SB postflop when you hit a set about 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont win everytime.

[Justin A]

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I fold preflop. If you limp you get 3-1 but sometimes you face a raise behind. You have to make up over 5 sb postflop. If you raise you get to play a small pair against 2-3. Sweet.

That said I do raise and call sometimes, but folding is my default.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but i think you can make 5SB postflop when you hit a set about 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. So you're saying it's checked to you and you bet and everyone folds 0% of the time? How about two players peeling the flop and folding the turn?

Since these things do happen, it also means you'll win unimproved enough of the time to make this very playable.

[ggbman]

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I dont get the turn raise at all against someone that capped the flop and still bets into the turn,do you really think your hand is best here,will you get a better hand to fold,doubtful.
if there is a chance he is manically bluffing then just let him bluff,why try to fold a bluffer?

what am i missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is we are going to showdown here, it will likely cost us two bets. It's better to raise the turn now and force stronger hands into submission so we can check behind the river. Also, we have a chance of the SB folding a 66 or 77 type hand with this action. when the BB is play a big draw aggressivly, we get more value. Additionally, he needs a very stong hand to 3 bet the turn, and given his preflop action there is not much he could have to do that with.

[ggbman]

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all im saying, is that a 4 is much less likely a) by bayes and b) because who the hell (besides me) fastplays flopped trips?

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I play hands differently, it is unlikely you would be able to peg me like this. This was a situational play.
I would fastplay flopped trips often against a guy who has shown he'll shove this many chips in with a small pocket overpair.

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[ggbman]

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i dont think there is much equity difference in raising or limping 55 out of context, but when you apply it to situations there is. everyone has different cutoffs for raising limpers with pairs. against a limper 55 isnt that much different than 22. would you raise a limper with 22? if hes loose enough that he could have a 4 or smaller in his hand than the potential for dominating him is there.

for me, my standards, and im not saying they are right, are probably that i limp with 55 a bit more often than i raise there, i raise 66 a bit more often than i limp and i almost always raise 77. the likelihood that the opponent is holding an undercard to your pair goes up expotentially as the size of the pair increases because 6x is more likely than 4x. likewise, if you are holding 77 its more likely that the BB will defend against your raise with a 6 in his hand than a 4. however, i do of course know that this is not the only reason why youd raise these pairs preflop.

getting the bb to fold is a huge part. if you inflate the pot with a small pair facing all overcards, you are letting your opponents play hit or miss against you which will allow them to play correctly unless they are the type to fold or call with their overcards without regards to pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree here. Firstly anyone who is limping UTG short handed probably sucks, but furthermore their hand range will include A2, A3, A4, A5, 22, 33, 44 and other garbage often enough that i would think 55 has a reasonable equity edge over 22 in this spot.

Gabe

[cartman]

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That is we are going to showdown here, it will likely cost us two bets. It's better to raise the turn now and force stronger hands into submission so we can check behind the river. Also, we have a chance of the SB folding a 66 or 77 type hand with this action. when the BB is play a big draw aggressivly, we get more value. Additionally, he needs a very stong hand to 3 bet the turn, and given his preflop action there is not much he could have to do that with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I correct that you fold to a 3-bet?

What about a river donkbet?

Thanks,
Cartman

[ggbman]

I feel that the analysis of playing 55 against several players has been flawed thus far. UTG limped, he has me beat me very rarely. I will get the Sb out a lot, the the BB will often stick around. When he does, his hand range will not have an edge against me, especially considering the times he check/folds 10-7 on an AK7 flop etc...

The thing is, i am putting money in against hands i am likley currently ahead of with position. I think people should be able to play this hand profitable for sure, and dont forget about the times (Maybe 20-25%?) where i get this pot heads up with the best hand, position, AND some dead money in there.

[ggbman]

Yes and yes, he never does this with a worse hand. He should believe i have TT at a minimum now, and wont try to bluff me.

[PTjvs]

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Yes and yes, he never does this with a worse hand. He should believe i have TT at a minimum now, and wont try to bluff me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I think maybe you won this hand. If I were fastplaying flopped trips, I'd definately not even think about slowing down until after a turn 3bet.

[Noodles]

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It's better to raise the turn now and force stronger hands into submission so we can check behind the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? you end up paying 2 bets if they are stronger either way,what is so great about checking behind on the river to a better hand?

[ggbman]

Because you pay the exact same amount and win and extra bet every single time is drawing, with the added bonus of shutting out the SB.

Of course he won the hand nobody posts these kinds of hands without winning them.

[ggbman]

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Of course he won the hand nobody posts these kinds of hands without winning them.

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And what would "these kinds of hands" be?

[Noodles]

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Quote:
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It's better to raise the turn now and force stronger hands into submission so we can check behind the river.


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[/ QUOTE ]

you argument was about focing strongete hands into submission,which i dont get,
i understand the make drwing hands pay more bit,
but why are you so sure he is drawing?

[Noodles]

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play it the same. more often than not BB will have a flush draw and SB will have a 2 or some other random crap.



[/ QUOTE ]

really? i cant see the majority of players pushing a flush draw so hard,

the more i look at this the more i fold the turn

[ALL1N]

I can't believe postflop is getting so much discussion. There really is no other way to play it.

[krishanleong]

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I fold preflop. If you limp you get 3-1 but sometimes you face a raise behind. You have to make up over 5 sb postflop. If you raise you get to play a small pair against 2-3. Sweet.

That said I do raise and call sometimes, but folding is my default.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but i think you can make 5SB postflop when you hit a set about 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried, I really really tried, but I could only get 4 sb. /images/graemlins/smile.gif This is partly a joke. It's tough to come up with an answer to the question.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

River: (5.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Krishan

[surfdoc]

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Isn't playing small pockets versus 3-4 opponents the kind of thing that 2+2 books advise against?

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on the game. In some games, you will rarely get it heads up here and playing this in three- or four-handed raised pot is a pain. They'll check to you on the flop whether they hit or not and you usually have to bet, and most of the time one of them has sort of pair bigger than yours by the flop and isn't going away so you've invested three bets in this pot and you are drawing to two outs. In a lot of games like this, it plays out better if you take the flop cheaply without the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like an argument for folding preflop.

[ggbman]

I think there is a lot of good discussion going on about the best play preflop, so hopefully me giving results won't interfere with that. Anyway, i checked behind the river and lost the the BB's 66.

[kurosh]

I would like this a whole lot better with 88. Flush draw probably doesn't try to shut people out. Overcards probably don't cap. Looks like either a 4 or a PP and you're beat by all but 33. Best case you're against overcards + flush draw and he has 14 outs against you, but I think it's much more likely he has a PP or 4. SB has shown some interest in the pot too. I think I fold the flop.

I don't give the average player credit for laying down a PP here.

[baronzeus]

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I can't believe postflop is getting so much discussion. There really is no other way to play it.

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[baronzeus]

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no offense, but i think you can make 5SB postflop when you hit a set about 100% of the time.

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You dont win everytime.

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all im saying is that its profitable to play this against a field of 4. i dont have the sample size to mathematically prove this of course. im not gonna argue though /images/graemlins/tongue.gif if you want to pass up on value you can go ahead. up to you /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Subfallen]

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It should be noted that your opponents probably have around 20 outs against you on the flop. If folding is a mistake, it's not a big one. But 3-betting is still better.

[/ QUOTE ] I think you're underestimating both the chances he has the best hand and the size of the pot, and way overestimating the number of outs they ahve. TWENTY? how is that even possible?

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Haha, I must have been feeling over-generous after the Royal jackpot I won on PokerRoom last night. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif You're right, I don't think it's possibile for opponents to have 20 outs in this situation. Give one of them 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif for 15 outs and the other K/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif for 4 more outs...looks like 19 is the best you can do.

[krishanleong]

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no offense, but i think you can make 5SB postflop when you hit a set about 100% of the time.

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You dont win everytime.

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all im saying is that its profitable to play this against a field of 4. i dont have the sample size to mathematically prove this of course. im not gonna argue though /images/graemlins/tongue.gif if you want to pass up on value you can go ahead. up to you /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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It's a field of 3.

Krishan

[oreogod]

Did I see ppl advocating folds in this thread (i kind of skimmed it)? If I did, thats pretty much the last option someone should take here. imo, anyway.

[Justin A]

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Isn't playing small pockets versus 3-4 opponents the kind of thing that 2+2 books advise against?

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It depends on the game. In some games, you will rarely get it heads up here and playing this in three- or four-handed raised pot is a pain. They'll check to you on the flop whether they hit or not and you usually have to bet, and most of the time one of them has sort of pair bigger than yours by the flop and isn't going away so you've invested three bets in this pot and you are drawing to two outs. In a lot of games like this, it plays out better if you take the flop cheaply without the initiative.

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This seems like an argument for folding preflop.

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I touched on this a bit earlier, but this hand is profitable here no matter what the table is like. For instance, if everyone is super loose or agressive postflop, then we should have no problem making up the 5 small bets we need when we hit a set. If the table is tighter and we can't count on that type of action, then it also means we'll win much more often unimproved. Anywhere you move along that spectrum the hand is profitable, because anytime the table conditions make you lose set value, you gain fold equity.

I never know if I make any sense, how was that?

[surfdoc]

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Isn't playing small pockets versus 3-4 opponents the kind of thing that 2+2 books advise against?

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It depends on the game. In some games, you will rarely get it heads up here and playing this in three- or four-handed raised pot is a pain. They'll check to you on the flop whether they hit or not and you usually have to bet, and most of the time one of them has sort of pair bigger than yours by the flop and isn't going away so you've invested three bets in this pot and you are drawing to two outs. In a lot of games like this, it plays out better if you take the flop cheaply without the initiative.

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This seems like an argument for folding preflop.

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I touched on this a bit earlier, but this hand is profitable here no matter what the table is like. For instance, if everyone is super loose or agressive postflop, then we should have no problem making up the 5 small bets we need when we hit a set. If the table is tighter and we can't count on that type of action, then it also means we'll win much more often unimproved. Anywhere you move along that spectrum the hand is profitable, because anytime the table conditions make you lose set value, you gain fold equity.

I never know if I make any sense, how was that?

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It was fine. Makes sense although I still don't know how to play this hand.

So, when are you gonna come over and "sweat" me again. Losing 100BB in an hour was awesome and gotta be some kind of record.

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I touched on this a bit earlier, but this hand is profitable here no matter what the table is like.

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That is crap, it is not always profitable.

Low PPs are difficult to play against unpredictable opponents postflop.

A set does not guarantee a big pay off nor even a winning hand and an unimproved 55 on a 2 overcard flop is pretty worthless. Even against most draws it is worthless.

Against weak predictable opponents yes it is easily playable against tough unpredictable opponents no it isnt always.

Most marginal hands like this are situation dependent.

[Schizo]

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its cool when he calls pf with 89 and folds when the flop is 33j or calls with kq and folds to a 78a board. initiative wins pots. many pots. but not big pots.


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what is a 78a board?

[Schizo]

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I fold preflop. If you limp you get 3-1 but sometimes you face a raise behind. You have to make up over 5 sb postflop.

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Why do you say 5sb?

odds of flopping a set are 7.5/1. If you are getting 6:2 on the flop then shouldn't you make up 9sb?

7.5x2 = 15.
15-6 = 9.

[Schizo]

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Flush draw probably doesn't try to shut people out.

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WTF. With 2 overs and a flush draw I thought you always cap the flop unless you are HU.

[Schizo]

bump

[Schizo]

bump bump bumpity bump Schizo!