River Value Bet...limit was so much easier

[DcifrThs]

i think...nay, im sure, this is a huge hole in my NL game as of right now.

id like to plug this hole.

decent player limps (5/10 holdem) i forget exactly what he had but it was a decent amount and i covered (1700) and i have KK.

so he limps i make it 40, right about my standard sb calls he calls.

9d7s4s he bets 2/3 pot or so i raise to 200 sb folds he calls.

turn is Ah (probably a good card for me). i bet 350. he quickly calls (same as flop) so now there's about 1100 or so in the pot.

river is a blank. id say he has some kind of pair + flush draw or the A high flush draw that paired the turn (id say thats way less likely b/c he'd probably c'r the turn all in).

so there's this big pot out there, which im virtually surely ahead and will be called due to the pot size but i dont know how much to bet. an d i dont have an easy call if he now c'rs all in. how much to bet here? or do you check behind?

title was b/c this was an EASY value bet in limit.

Barron

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
which im virtually surely ahead and will be called due to the pot size

[/ QUOTE ]

How many hands that your'e ahead of do you really think will call after you played your hand this strong?

MAYBE QQ-TT, but I think that's about it.

If villian is weak passive and will call with a bunch of hands here, you can bet and feel good folding to a raise. In this case, I would probably bet about $400-$500.

If villian is tricky/aggressive. Just check behind. There's no good amount you can bet here to both get those calls and feel safe folding to a c/r.

Against an unknown, I check. Besides, at least you get to see their hand.

[Yeti]

I would play this hand differently post-flop, but I would almost certainly check behind here.

I'd be amazed if you didn't have 'leaks' more worthy of your time than this.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
I would play this hand differently post-flop, but I would almost certainly check behind here.

I'd be amazed if you didn't have 'leaks' more worthy of your time than this.

[/ QUOTE ]uh.... what he said... the reaosn to bet this river would be to be get someone off an Ahigh flush draw... value bet? online 5/10? no. no way.

[AZK]

this is not a value bet in NL.

[Roman]

not close.. check behind.

[lapoker17]

The whole hand looks bizarre to me.

Thought process? Hand range for villain?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole hand looks bizarre to me.


[/ QUOTE ]hes a limit player.
makes sense now, right?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I would play this hand differently post-flop, but I would almost certainly check behind here.

I'd be amazed if you didn't have 'leaks' more worthy of your time than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

alrighty then, now we're getting somewhere.

help me out. what is your thought process on the hand starting pf?

what are your actions?

Barron

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
this is not a value bet in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
decent player limps (5/10 holdem) i forget exactly what he had but it was a decent amount and i covered (1700) and i have KK.

so he limps i make it 40, right about my standard sb calls he calls.

9d7s4s he bets 2/3 pot or so i raise to 200

[/ QUOTE ]
ok, so pot is 130 on the flop, he leads for 80-ish, and you raise 120 more? why the mini-raise? make it at least 250 on top.

[ QUOTE ]
turn is Ah (probably a good card for me). i bet 350. he quickly calls

[/ QUOTE ]
i dunno why you're so sure it's a good card. i probably check behind on this turn. i understand you put him on a flush draw, but betting opens you up for a c/r; were you planning to fold if he did that?

[ QUOTE ]
so there's this big pot out there, which im virtually surely ahead and will be called due to the pot size

[/ QUOTE ]
what worse hand's gonna call you? Ts9s? TT, JJ? (would he not raise those pf? surely he'd raise QQ so we can cross that out.)

[ QUOTE ]
but i dont know how much to bet. an d i dont have an easy call if he now c'rs all in. how much to bet here? or do you check behind?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes.

[DcifrThs]

thanks guys.

i checked behind. he had K9ss and KK was good.

Barron

[AZK]

You are lucky, most times the flush draw will be with the ace.

[Matt Flynn]

If you bet the river, your intent is to blow him off a weak ace, so you bet big. There is no value bet there unless you opponent is catastrophically bad.

Raise the flop more. The follow-through on the turn after that weak flop raise is fine.

[GrunchCan]

Your flop raise was about a minraise, wasn't it? I think it would be better to raise to about 350 to apply some real pressure.

[ QUOTE ]
title was b/c this was an EASY value bet in limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

In limit this is an easy value bet becasue if you're wrong the downside isn't very far down -- just 1 more BB. In NL the downside is like falling in to the deep end of an empty pool.

Raise pf more than 4x the bb if there is a limper.

My only concern is that if you put him on the nut flush draw, he is now ahead of you in a big pot, but missed what he needed to get. It is definetly possible to get his missed flush draw of Ax with a weak kicker out on a large bet. A value bet here seems bad and IMO will only be called by hands that are beating you unless he has something like QQ. You could try and overbet the pot if you put him on a weak ace with the missed flush draw. He would probably lay it down if his stack is close to yours. So either overbet the pot or check behind are my two moves based on your read of the situation. I do think checking behind is the better of the two moves.

This is why position is so huge, if you were first to act, this would be a tough spot and I would almost lean toward betting the pot and hope for a fold.

[rwanger]

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the river, your intent is to blow him off a weak ace, so you bet big.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a realy smart player be able to call with a weak ace here. After all, the only reasonable hand for hero to have that has an ace (given his actions) is something like AsKs. It's going to be hard to put him on AA when the board has an Ace, and villian has another ace. With the raise preflop, and the flop reraise, it certainly looks like an overpair.

And if the turn did pair villians Ace, it most likely meant that villian had the Ace of spades, so he knows hero isn't on nut flush draw (and probably therefor, would not raise the flop with only AK, AQ). Unless he can give hero credit for pocket 9's, he might have to call a big river bet with a weak ace.

Resonable logic?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the river, your intent is to blow him off a weak ace, so you bet big.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a realy smart player be able to call with a weak ace here. After all, the only reasonable hand for hero to have that has an ace (given his actions) is something like AsKs. It's going to be hard to put him on AA when the board has an Ace, and villian has another ace. With the raise preflop, and the flop reraise, it certainly looks like an overpair.

And if the turn did pair villians Ace, it most likely meant that villian had the Ace of spades, so he knows hero isn't on nut flush draw (and probably therefor, would not raise the flop with only AK, AQ). Unless he can give hero credit for pocket 9's, he might have to call a big river bet with a weak ace.

Resonable logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure about that. He may even let go of a big Ax suited. There has been so much strength shown so far in the hand that a big river bet would make for a tough call. I guess it all depends on your opponent.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the river, your intent is to blow him off a weak ace, so you bet big.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a realy smart player be able to call with a weak ace here. After all, the only reasonable hand for hero to have that has an ace (given his actions) is something like AsKs. It's going to be hard to put him on AA when the board has an Ace, and villian has another ace. With the raise preflop, and the flop reraise, it certainly looks like an overpair.

And if the turn did pair villians Ace, it most likely meant that villian had the Ace of spades, so he knows hero isn't on nut flush draw (and probably therefor, would not raise the flop with only AK, AQ). Unless he can give hero credit for pocket 9's, he might have to call a big river bet with a weak ace.

Resonable logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty confident that Dcfr, as well as other high limit players, are capable of bluff raising any old AK on this board.

[rwanger]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty confident that Dcfr, as well as other high limit players, are capable of bluff raising any old AK on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. I don't play up there...yet.

But just because they are capable, does that make it likely? Or do you not call the river bet with a weak ace because it is very unlikely that a worse hand is trying to bet you off?

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
turn is Ah (probably a good card for me). i bet 350. he quickly calls

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno why you're so sure it's a good card. i probably check behind on this turn. i understand you put him on a flush draw, but betting opens you up for a c/r; were you planning to fold if he did that?


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the river plan when checking behind turned scare cards like this? How do you handle a big bet (with flush or non-flush river)? How about another check?

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
turn is Ah (probably a good card for me). i bet 350. he quickly calls

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno why you're so sure it's a good card. i probably check behind on this turn. i understand you put him on a flush draw, but betting opens you up for a c/r; were you planning to fold if he did that?


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the river plan when checking behind turned scare cards like this? How do you handle a big bet (with flush or non-flush river)? How about another check?

[/ QUOTE ]
if the river is a flush card and he bets out, i think it's an easy fold since we're not beating much at that point. if the river is a non-flush card and he fires, i guess we have to decide if he's betting his busted draw or if he has an ace; i'd prob'ly call a reasonable-sized bet most of the time. if he checks the river, i think now we can value bet; he would be more likely to call with TT/JJ or even a 9 now because we checked the turn, since he might put us on the busted flush.

[Philuva]

I dont want to state the obvious, but the reason this is such an easy value bet in limit is because that final bet will be so small compared to the size of the pot, many losing hands will be forced to pay off. Hence the value.

In NL, you could make a small bet relative to the size of the pot and probably be paid off by worse hands but the risk of opening up the betting is soooo much greater that there is no value in doing this. Therefore in NL you are only value betting the end when the reward (being paid off by worse hand for a sizeable amount) is greater than the risk (opening up the betting to be CR). Since the bet needs to be sizeable in order to offset the risk of being CR, the range of hands willing to payoff will be much smaller.

Since this risk is far greater in NL, value betting the river is not nearly as common as in limit.