10/20 pot gets bigger and bigger but the board gets worse

[AllIn3High]

I've been running good at my normal game (5/10 6-max) and my full game needs work so I decided to jump right into 10/20.

This is villians first orbit, so no reads / stats.

I've added my thinking on each street. Please let me know it's messed up. I felt really lost during this hand.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls.

<font color="green">Ok, limping from MP2, I figure this means a weak hand and free money. Too aggro for full table?</font>



Flop: (5.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="green">He donks, this usually means a weak made hand, a draw and very rarely a big hand looking to get 3-bet. So I raise his donk bet. Well.. looks like he likes his hand, I'm gonna peel and see what he does and probably call down on a non-scary board.</font>

Turn: (5.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="green">OK, I've improved, the board is scary, so I raise for value, to protect my hand and take a free showdown if I feel like it. I don't exactly welcome his raise, but can't fold now.</font>

River: (11.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="green">Damn scary board, but his play has been weird, he either has a big hand or he has [censored]. I think he has [censored] 1 in 12.75 times, so I call.</font>

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

[Scotch78]

33 - 3 ways
99 - 3 ways
Q9 - 6 ways
Q3s - 1 way
A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ - 2 ways
K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ - 2 ways
A3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif - 3 ways

I doubt limping with Q3 and 93s are standard for 10/20 fish, so while you're ahead slightly more than half the time, he has a lot more outs so you probably don't have enough/any edge in equity. I would just call down on the turn. And if he'll play the flop this way with AQ, KQ (no spades) or just a flush draw, then it becomes even more important not to raise.

Scott

[bobhalford]

I would just call the turn and the river. No reason to throw more bets in there when it's clear villain really likes his hand. Looks like a made flush on the turn or a set. I would call expecting to lose.

i dont like rasing QTs in full ring against one limper.

this flop hit him as you said so wait for the turn to raise a safe card, or call down when the scare cards fall.

when you are heads up, its ok to call down. you dont need to protect your hand as if it was multiway. let him bet when he has 4 outs. like i said raise the exoensive street to punish him when the safe card falls.

what are you a baby, you have top pair play it as such. Man id love to have you at my table

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like rasing QTs in full ring against one limper.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, as I wrote, maybe that's too aggressive for full ring, but I do it all the time in 6-max. Is a fold better then? I hate giving the blinds a cheap shot at a good flop here.

[ QUOTE ]

this flop hit him as you said so wait for the turn to raise a safe card, or call down when the scare cards fall.


[/ QUOTE ]

You raise his donk bet too, right? I don't know he likes his hand until he 3-bets.

I think my troubles really start once i "improve" on 4th, just hate giving a cheap river to hands I just drew out on but have decent redraws in this big pot.

And since he is unknown he might call and check the river to me with a better hand now fearing i made a flush so I can take the free showdown.

But the consensus seems to be I should just call down on the turn. I'll probably do that the next time.

[Borodog]

No, a fold is not in order, but a limp is. QTs plays well multi-way. Try to encourage a multi-way pot.

[brettbrettr]

I like the pre-flop raise. The button is nice.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna peel and see what he does and probably call down on a non-scary board.


[/ QUOTE ]

This comment came from your reasoning on the flop. I took it to mean that you would fold on a scary board.

By the river, the board has 4 to an open-ended straight flush, and you have neither the straight or the flush.

How much scarier do you need it to be?

Mind you, I'm not criticizing the play of the hand, necessarility; I'm more taking issue with the tendency to change your plan in order to justify calling down.

[ QUOTE ]
Damn scary board, but his play has been weird, he either has a big hand or he has [censored]. I think he has [censored] 1 in 12.75 times, so I call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dude bet/3bet the flop AND turn, and bet the river on this insanely coordinated board. Do you really see players do this with air ~8% of the time?

-McGee

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
This comment came from your reasoning on the flop. I took it to mean that you would fold on a scary board.

By the river, the board has 4 to an open-ended straight flush, and you have neither the straight or the flush.

How much scarier do you need it to be?

Mind you, I'm not criticizing the play of the hand, necessarility; I'm more taking issue with the tendency to change your plan in order to justify calling down.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that was my plan until I improved. Had the turn been some other spade I would have folded the turn. If the pot hadn't been so big on the river I would have folded.

I postet the hand because I want input, not because I want to be told how well I play, so if changing the plan on this turn card is a mistake please let me know. I'm thinking it might be.


[ QUOTE ]

Dude bet/3bet the flop AND turn, and bet the river on this insanely coordinated board. Do you really see players do this with air ~8% of the time?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he was unknown and he played the hand very very strange. I couldn't put him on any kind of hand, and to be honest I was a bit curious as to what he might have. Also, I think he has to bet that river no matter what he holds the way the hand was played, if he doesn't have the straight or flush he can't very well hope to check/call.

Or maybe I just try to find every reason possible to spew chips?

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, that was my plan until I improved. Had the turn been some other spade I would have folded the turn. If the pot hadn't been so big on the river I would have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mis-read your original post a little bit. When you said you would peel and call down on a non-scary board, I thought you meant you'd call down if you improved on a non-scary board, fold if you didn't improve OR if you did but the board got scary. I always take "peel" to mean that you're behind and folding if you don't improve, and that's the heart of the confusion.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, he was unknown and he played the hand very very strange.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is strange about the way he played it? He played it very aggressively, but there's nothing terribly unusual about it (bet looking to three bet on the flop isn't as uncommon as you seem to think, in my opinion). Bear in mind that you now know what hand he had, so if he showed down red A2o, that's obviously going to influence your opinion of his play of the hand. But in the midst of the action, I don't see anything strange about the way he played it.

As for the way I'd play it, I think I'd just call the turn. If I did raise, it'd be with the intention of folding to a 3bet. I don't play 10/20 online, so if people there are routinely doing this sort of thing with AsQx or something like that, then my advice would certainly change.

I think calling this particular river is pretty bad once he 3bets the turn. Any sort of pair-plus-spade hand that he might have been playing has gotten there, and there's a pretty good chance he was ahead to begin with.

I think folding is by far the best play, with raising slightly ahead of calling.

-McGee

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]

I mis-read your original post a little bit. When you said you would peel and call down on a non-scary board, I thought you meant you'd call down if you improved on a non-scary board, fold if you didn't improve OR if you did but the board got scary. I always take "peel" to mean that you're behind and folding if you don't improve, and that's the heart of the confusion.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the bad choice of words, some of the limit jargon is new to me /images/graemlins/smile.gif. What i planned to do on the flop was to take a card off and decided from there.

[ QUOTE ]

What is strange about the way he played it? He played it very aggressively, but there's nothing terribly unusual about it (bet looking to three bet on the flop isn't as uncommon as you seem to think, in my opinion).


[/ QUOTE ]

I meant the whole line in the hand, limp preflop and then go absolutely nuts on a scary board. On the river I thought, OK, this guy either has a monster or he has nothing at all.

[ QUOTE ]

Bear in mind that you now know what hand he had, so if he showed down red A2o, that's obviously going to influence your opinion of his play of the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

You might be right. I did win the hand. But I've tried honestly to write out what I thought during the hand. Afterwards when I looked at I thought "[censored], this can't be the right way to play this".

[ QUOTE ]

But in the midst of the action, I don't see anything strange about the way he played it.

As for the way I'd play it, I think I'd just call the turn. If I did raise, it'd be with the intention of folding to a 3bet. I don't play 10/20 online, so if people there are routinely doing this sort of thing with AsQx or something like that, then my advice would certainly change.

I think calling this particular river is pretty bad once he 3bets the turn. Any sort of pair-plus-spade hand that he might have been playing has gotten there, and there's a pretty good chance he was ahead to begin with.

I think folding is by far the best play, with raising slightly ahead of calling.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

I now agree that calling the turn and re-evaluating on the river is the best play.

I think folding to a 3-bet is a huge mistake tho, I'm getting 10.75-1 on a call which, even without implied odds is enough to draw to the nut boat.

I appriciate all the input!

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
think folding to a 3-bet is a huge mistake tho, I'm getting 10.75-1 on a call which, even without implied odds is enough to draw to the nut boat.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. I hadn't realized just how big the pot had gotten. Sorry about that.

I should say that I think the best line is call, call. Second best is raise/call, fold.

-McGee