Need advice for a 12-handed loose HE table

[SoBeDude]

I have a private 10-20 game that is really incredible.

Most of the players have no clue about things like implied odds (or odds in general). And they ignore drawing odds completely.

One guy on the button with 22 capped the betting (3 bets to him) with the rationale "well if I hit I'll rake a big pot". I know because I asked him.

These people are truely amazing and don't pay attention (but have decently deep pockets). After 2 hours of playing very tightly, I get AA UTG, open-raise, and get 7 callers. Unfortunately flop came KKx and I check-folded (and yes, someone had a K).

I flashed my AA to the woman next to me and the look of horror on her face was amazing. She couldn't believe I was throwing out AA.

Or I'd raise UTG with AK and get called by 24s. I'd flop an ace, bet every street, then lose to 2 pair, 2's and 4's. She never raised.

Anyway, my question is this:

How do I best approach this game to beat it? 12 handed with lots of loose players is very powerful implied collusion.

I've been trying to play only hands that can make a BIG hand, things like suited connectors. I avoid hands like AJ in EP. I don't raise with AKo in EP, but will open-raise with it in MP/LP. I avoid all small pairs unless I'm on the CO or Button.

When its 4+ handed, I usually don't push my overcards postflop, I'll check-fold them. Because they will call, all the way to the river, and one of them will catch a pair. (I don't know if i'm doing this too much so they're catching on though.)

I play very tightly to the point my opponents (and the dealers) comment on how tight I'm playing, which is not good.

One woman who buys in for TWO racks, is either up 2K or down 2K every night.

So I sit and fold, and fold, and fold. Then come out swinging, and miss. then fold, and fold, and fold. But eventually I run out of chips. Yes, I do drag the occasional pot, but not enough to make up for the losses.

I feel I am clearly the most knowledgeable player in the room and by a wide margin.

Any and all suggestions on how to adjust to this table would be greatly appreciated!

BTW, I'm losing badly. I won my first 3 sessions (nice run of cards), but almost every session since is a loser. I'm down about $2500.

I know. 2500 is not the end of the world (125 BBs). But I
think I need to adjust my play to make money there, and I can't quite figure out how to do that.

Thanks for any and all ideas/input.

-Scott

[dux]

Well, with a loose 12 handed game (12 handed??? Amazing), the implied odds are bigger. So like you said, what are the kind of hands that win big pots? Big hands. So go for the hands that make flushes, straights, and sets. I would play all pairs if it was passive. I would also in late position play JTo and others in search of the nut straight. But this is not from experience, this is just me thinking about what might be required. To me it's a bit like a no-limit strategy - you can limp alot of hands for cheap, if when you make your hand you win alot of money. To me Ax suit would bring home a lot of bacon (But not with aces). I hope this helps somewhat, or at least my post will create some discussion.

[rigoletto]

Hi Scott

I think the starting hands from this site lowlimitholdem (http://www.lowlimitholdem.com/) is perfect for this kind of game, especially if it's passive. Hit the flop hard or fold (be carefull about chasing gutshots and other marginal draws unless they give you the near nuts). Raise for value in late postion (like 45s on the button after 7-8 limpers).

Can you get me into this game /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif Sounds like it could almost be worth the airfaire from Copenhagen to Miami /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[SoBeDude]

I guess I should have mentioned that its not a passive game.

I'd say better than 70% of the time its raised preflop. And sometimes it goes nuts with capping.

But its not a really wild game, just loose. But its not passive.

This is not a limp with a lot type of table. (IMO)

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

Of course I could get you in to this game! (but we'll sit at different tables)

The game is not passive (as I just mentioned to the other responder as well). Does this change your thoughts any?

-Scott

[Instinct]

Hi Scott,

From my experience playing in pretty wild games ( only 10 handed though ) I would play a very different style from what you are playing. I'll offer a few suggestions that you can take or leave.

Firstly I would play any pair from early position. If I expect 7 or 8 players in the pot I would play any pair to a raise as well. In late position with alot of players I might even raise pots with medium sized pocket pairs. In these loose aggressive games you will get a big bang for your buck when you hit a set. If you don't the decision is very easy. Fold.

I would only play small and medium suited connectors from late position. ( occasionally from other positions if the game is not super aggressive ) These cards tend to always be drawing cards post flop and you will often have to pay alot for a draw. Making the correct decisions in wild games can be tough. So 45s, 78s I would never raise on button. I would always want to get into the pot as cheap as possible. Often I will actually throw these hands away, because even when you make a flush you will often lose in these games because people are playing any suited cards. Higher suited connectors 89s and up I am way more inclined to play because you are more likely to have nut straight when you hit. 10Js, JQs I'll play from any position no raise, late with a raise depending.

I would play A high suited from any position as well, and will call raises with these hands often. Why, because if you hit you know you have the nuts. I actually will often play Kx suited more often in these games in late position.

I would always raise with AK early position. You still want fewer players in the pot. AK, AQs I might limp and reraise.

Hopefully these suggestions are useful. i have decent success over last 2 years in these wilder games. Expect big swings though ... maybe the last few sessions are just a downswing. Also don't forget to appear like you are gambling with them ... smile and have fun too, as the gamblers won't start to get too upset on how "tight" you are.

Good Luck. Instinct.

[rigoletto]

The starting hand suggestions at lowlimitholdem are very position dependend. All the suggested UTG and EP hands can stand a raise. I would muck smaller unsuited connectors and AJo if it was raised before me, but call a raise with suited connectors, small pairs and any suited brodwaycards if enough limpers are in. The reasoning for calling raises in LP (actually mainly in CO and button), is this statement:

When its 4+ handed, I usually don't push my overcards postflop, I'll check-fold them. Because they will call, all the way to the river, and one of them will catch a pair. (I don't know if i'm doing this too much so they're catching on though.)

If enough people go to the river, the implied odds are big enough to call two cold after 4 have entered the pot.

I've been trying to play only hands that can make a BIG hand, things like suited connectors. I avoid hands like AJ in EP. I don't raise with AKo in EP, but will open-raise with it in MP/LP. I avoid all small pairs unless I'm on the CO or Button.

You should raise AKo in any position in a game like this. It's a strong hand in any texture and will win more then it's fair share of pots, just don't fall too deply in love with TP/TK.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Dude, you might be the most knowledgeable person at the game, but that's not enough, you have to make the right adjustments. I know the games you frequent on paradise, they're usually a world away from this loose 12-handed game. the paradise 5-10 is pretty tight most of the time, with not many pots over 3 players. That's much different than a seven player average pot.

You need to play hands that make big hands. I'd play any suited ace from any position. You're all mixed up on the pair thing, you should be playing any pair from any position as well. They're easy to get away from if you miss, and they can win a big pot when you hit. Raise with them, even the small ones, if there are eight or more opponents in the pot with you. Raise your big ones (QQ-AA) from any position. Limp with smaller ones, unless you're raising for set value. Suited connectors are great in these games too, as long as you're not calling many raises with them.

You are correctly de-valuing offsuit high cards, the implicit collusion is high against them, and they are giving reverse implied odds to the good drawing hands. Also, top pair with these hands may very well be the worst hand on the flop, and should perhaps be folded in many situations (that's why you play them far less often). Imagine you've got KJ on a board of J 9 7 with a two flush and eight loose opponents. About the only card you want to see on the turn is another jack.

Obviouly, you need to jam the pot when you have a hand, to make up for all the losses when you get sucked out on.

You needta be patient in these games, although admittedly you need a hell of a lot more patience with twelve players. They're not like paradise 5-10.

al

[Ed Miller]

This question is often asked, so you should check the archives.

Basically, read the section in HPFAP on loose games. It is very possible that your approach to this game is all wrong (it sounds like it might be from your blurb).

Is the game typically loose-passive (one or sometimes two bets before the flop) or loose-aggressive (often three or four bets preflop)? If it is loose-passive, then hands like small pairs (which you say you aren't playing) go way up in value (how good is flopping a set against these clowns?) suited Aces and suited connectors also go up in value. Big suited cards also become more valuable. The hands that go down in value are the big offsuit cards... hands like AJ and KQ aren't worth that much, though I generally wouldn't stop raising with AK.

You will need to draw to longshot hands more often and you should take advantage of plays like the free card play. You also need to protect your vulnerable made hands better, which may include waiting until the turn to raise to force hands like bottom pair and gutshot draws to fold in large pots.

You should be raising a lot preflop when you are in late position... this will get more money in the pot when you have a solid hand in good position and encourage your poor-playing opponents to check to you on the flop so you will often get to see the turn for free if you so choose.

If the game is loose-aggressive, then basically the only hands you should be playing are pairs (even small pairs sometimes) and big suited cards.

If I had to guess what you are doing wrong... my guess is that you fear being drawn out on, and are therefore not aggressive enough with your vulnerable made hands. You should be paid off on your big hands more than enough to cover your losses when you miss or are drawn out on. If you aren't, then it is probably because you aren't betting and raising enough so a) the pots are smaller when you do win, and b) you win less often because you let people draw cheaply. You may need to value bet more on the river... if your opponents call you with very poor hands on the river, then you need to significantly lower your bar for value betting... feel free to begin betting hands like third pair for value against these opponents.

And perhaps the game isn't actually as good as you think...

[SoBeDude]

So funny how I read just the first line of your post and I'm replying before I even read the rest.

Since I've been at this site, I've never seen a post about a 12-handed game.

Please point them out to me.

And yes, I think that a 12 handed loose game plays differently than a typical 10-handed game. hence my post.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

I'm sure its my fault. I think I've done a poor job of framing my question, and provided incomplete information.

Is the game typically loose-passive (one or sometimes two bets before the flop) or loose-aggressive (often three or four bets preflop)? If it is loose-passive, then hands like small pairs (which you say you aren't playing) go way up in value (how good is flopping a set against these clowns?) suited Aces and suited connectors also go up in value. Big suited cards also become more valuable. The hands that go down in value are the big offsuit cards... hands like AJ and KQ aren't worth that much, though I generally wouldn't stop raising with AK.

On the loose-tight scale, the game is definitely loose, but not really passive. Some passive players, some players that can jump from passive to aggressive with no notice and no cards to justify their jump.

Almost every hand is played for at least 2 bets preflop (say around 80%, but rarely more than 3 bets), and 5-9 handed. not overly aggressive, but wild capping does pop up. Always some calling stations that can have any hand.

Its also almost always played to a showdown. But only 2-3 people are usually there at the showdown...usually the two people with the best hands of the 9 that saw the flop.

The implied odds are not as good as one would think given how many are seeing the flop. Good dead money yes, but not good implied odds. Lots fold on flop/turn. I've never seen that fantasy table where all the loose players stay to the river. must be nice.

I don't like the price of paying a double bet up front with small pairs. once again, the implied odds thing. And I seem to flop the set way below the expected 1 in 8.5 tries.

Yes big suiteds are nice. Wish they showed up a lot more often. (man cannot live by big suiteds alone??) (and I think every moron, even me, knows how to play them) And if I wait for the big suiteds and big pairs, I'm not getting paid off. If I sit and fold for an hour, then come out raising, do you think I get action? These people are loose, not retarded. They may see the flop, but if its a broadway-type flop, either they caught a decent piece or they're out. no big pots for Mr Rock.

I will not play KQo in EP at this table. But I will of course play AK. But the problem with AKo is that if I raise UTG and I get 6 callers (typical). With no A or K on the board, I'm toast and behind. Someone's on a flush draw, someone's on a straight draw, and two others flopped a pair and have backdoor potential. In this situation, I'm way behind to the collective group, just put in two bets, and have only a small chance of winning the pot. And there is no chance overcards are taking this pot. How is this a good +EV play? Am I missing something?

I also won't raise with AKo after a bunch of callers. Same reason. And I fold AJo in LP after a bunch of callers. Is this wrong? If so, why? (please be specific)

I've read and reread that loose section of HPFAP. I've tried to apply everything in the section. No mention of 12-handed games at all. not even one line. And yes, I think this is very significant. I think its as different a texture of game as is 5 handed is to 10 handed. But I have tried to follow the advice in the section anyway, to little help.

If I had to guess what you are doing wrong... my guess is that you fear being drawn out on, and are therefore not aggressive enough with your vulnerable made hands. You should be paid off on your big hands more than enough to cover your losses when you miss or are drawn out on. If you aren't, then it is probably because you aren't betting and raising enough so a) the pots are smaller when you do win, and b) you win less often because you let people draw cheaply. You may need to value bet more on the river... if your opponents call you with very poor hands on the river, then you need to significantly lower your bar for value betting... feel free to begin betting hands like third pair for value against these opponents.

I don't think this is the case. If I'm in a hand I'm firing chips. If I'm in I'm betting and raising every chance.

And the occasional pot I rake is not coming close to enough to cover the bad beats, suckouts, and blinds. The typical pot is not huge. There is little reraising unless someone made a hand. raises can mean anything, but a reraise is usually a big one. So that actually brings up another problem. If I fold to the reraise, these people are experienced enough to start taking shots at me. So I either pay off, or get bluffed out of pots.

I don't let them draw cheaply. but I know I mentioned they ignore pot odds. If they're on a flush or straight draw they're calling the mortgage cold to see the rest of the cards. I'm still betting, but they're not folding. not for 2, not for 3 bets. Hell they'll stay with second pair for 2 bets...usually when I have overcards

Also according to HPFAP, I shouldn't semi-bluff ever in this game, as I'm always going to get called, which limits my betting opportunities.

If I miss with 5 hands over the course of a dozen circuits I've blown a rack. And missing with 5 hands is easy to do at this table.

You should be raising a lot preflop when you are in late position... this will get more money in the pot when you have a solid hand in good position and encourage your poor-playing opponents to check to you on the flop so you will often get to see the turn for free if you so choose.

Other than the painfully obvious, what hands should I be raising in LP with? (in other words, duh. I know to raise with my big hands (group 1-3) in LP, but perhaps you're vaguely suggesting other hands here as well?

You will need to draw to longshot hands more often and you should take advantage of plays like the free card play

I do try to take the free card often here. But can you be more specific about longshot hands? why would I try for longshots more often here than the odds warrant? If I have the odds for a gutshot I'm calling (I think). how is this table dependent?

You may need to value bet more on the river... if your opponents call you with very poor hands on the river, then you need to significantly lower your bar for value betting... feel free to begin betting hands like third pair for value against these opponents.

They're calling me with 5th pair when I have overcards. They're calling me with 2 pair when I have TP/TK, or their baby straight after calling 2 cold with 2 4 and making the straight on the river.

I also think the loose section of HPFAP is really geared to a 10 seated table that is usually dealing about 8 hands. Typical casino tables usually have about 2 people flitting around, eating, potty breaks, etc.

So a 8 handed loose game is not in the same galaxy is a table where 12 people are being dealt cards every hand.

I hope this helps clarify this game.

And unfortunately, I don't feel I'm any closer to insights on how to beat this game.

-Scott