C/r-ing the Flop and when to use it

[orange]

Another theory/question post.

When I find myself with a hand such as TPTK on the flop, I usually bet. Alternately, when I have something like a set or straight, I also bet. When I find myself with a draw I bet, and when I have air, I bet.

I want to expand on my list of weapons used in SSNL. Checkraising is very rare for me, and I only use it under special circumstances. To others, I keep my actions consistent- bet or fold.

When picking off bluffs, I almost always use the c/c and lead turn tactic, and using scare cards,etc for later betting. Or, when opponents are frequently getting out of line, weak leads (inducing raises) and bet/3-bets work fine when I have the goods.

I read some of the instances in the 'aggression' post, and for me, I usually don't pull those types of plays. I think that the players I play with will call a c/r under almost all circumstances more than 60% of the time.

When I have a hand, I never check raise. I lead almost 100% of the time, and raise most any bets in front of me. What merits the use of a c/r on the flop. This post refers to flop play only.

So, what is the point of c/r-ing? Yes, I realize it is used to pick off bluffs. But other than that, does it have any use?

[rikz]

[ QUOTE ]
When I find myself with a hand such as TPTK on the flop, I usually bet. Alternately, when I have something like a set or straight, I also bet. When I find myself with a draw I bet, and when I have air, I bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do the same thing. My C/R percentages on all streets are very small.

I'd like to hear from people that C/R more, or have some observations on this.

[guaranteedBluff]

The c/r is a good weapon to use OOP against a LAG->maniac type for a few a reasons.

1) you pick off his continuation bet bluffs (sometimes)
2) he will often incorrectly call your c/r because he hates to lay down a hand that he raised PF.
3) you build a pot when you are on a draw - when you hit, your are much more likely to get paid off. The c/r here is almost always interpreted as strength -- rarely will villain put you on a draw

[RiverFenix]

I use it more often than this, but one of my favorite lines to use it in is.
EP, big pair, raise, 1-2 callers behind. Flop a boat, something like K-4-4 holding KK. Lead out as a cont bet. Check turn letting them catchup, check river inducing a bet. Obviouslly villian has to be aggro and have some reason to call on the flop, but when these conditions are met I love to take this line.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
I use it more often than this, but one of my favorite lines to use it in is.
EP, big pair, raise, 1-2 callers behind. Flop a boat, something like K-4-4 holding KK. Lead out as a cont bet. Check turn letting them catchup, check river inducing a bet. Obviouslly villian has to be aggro and have some reason to call on the flop, but when these conditions are met I love to take this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I do this from time to time. However, I'm talking specifically about the flop. Flop play only /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
So, what is the point of c/r-ing? Yes, I realize it is used to pick off bluffs. But other than that, does it have any use?

[/ QUOTE ]
Another reason to C/R is to tell the table that a check from you doesn't always mean weakness. This assumes that the table is paying attention to your play (which isn't always true at these stakes). I occasionally C/R with big draws and TPTK to pick off a late-position bluffer.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
I occasionally C/R with big draws and TPTK to pick off a late-position bluffer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem I see with this is your building a pot OOP with hands that you want to go to showdown (or for a draw, at least to the river). I much prefer to be the aggressor and the one controlling the action.

With a hand like TPTK after a flop c/r, how do you proceed ot a blank turn? I assume b/f, the same as you would if you have lead in the first place. The only difference is that your not bloating the pot even more by the turn.

I love the c/r in live games. If you do it more often, as sub-zero was saying your able to get more free cards and thus suck out on people more. If you check and people are scared of you raising them they will start checking and letting you hit a lot. By just betting all of the time I think you lose the ability to get reads on people (i dont know if ur playing online which then its just betting patterns) but by checking you can pick up a lot of information. Once agian, its more risk but its also a bigger reward. And depending on how tight u play you can show the c/r when u have a big hand or nothing and then the next time u do it you will get significantly less credit than u had before. When you bet all of the time people will still give you credit. Most of the time u can take down standard continuation bets with nothing if u just c/r. And then you show the bluff a couple of times again 1 opponent and then they push the next time when u have something because they are tired of losing all of this money.
I also like the c/r if ur just calling preflop with a big pp.

[GrunchCan]

I like using the check-raise against LAGs for 2 purposes:

1) To control thier LAGiness. Especially when I'm OOP. If a LAG to my left is constantly pounding me preflop and on the flop with raises & continuation bets and I want him to slow it down a bit, I'll pick up a good value hand and clobber him with a *big* checkraise. It usually only takes once, sometimes twice, before he visibly slows down his aggression when I'm in future pots with him. It really works. But your CR has to be big.

2) In the above case, I'm trying to get him to slow down, and I'll use #1 in the case where I really don't mind if he folds to my CR. Sometimes however, if the opponent has a good hand and you have a better hand, the CR will get maximum value. In this case, you should want a call. To that end, my CRs here are not huge like they are in #1. But they are real raises. Say I check, he bets 100, I might CR to 250 or 350. I want at least a call, but I *really* want to get all the chips in the middle.

I can also CR weak-tight opponents on a bluff. You have to have a good read, however, as to what thier hand is. Becasue they are tight, they tend not to get involved in many marginal hands. But sometimes they do. If you CR them all-in (even if you have air or close to it), they can fold a nice pot to you. I never do this on the turn. At this point, someone (me or him) is usually comitted. Key point: I don't want a call!

If I've done this to a weak-tight opponent several times and he somehow *knows* that I was pushing him around, he may get it in his mind to stand up to me one time. You need to keep a real close feel on the temperment of your opponents. But if you get real lucky in your timing, your opponent will plan to stand up to your CR with a call or a push when he has a strong hand. If you have the nuts, you've just scored a HUGE pot. This takes a great read, and the ability to control yopur opponents.

Thanks for asking this question. It forced me to gather my thoughts on this.

[xorbie]

If someone continuation bets far too often to have something remotely decent, I will checkraise draws pretty frequently, but also some made hands on boards where he is more likely to have something (most villains at the 100-200 level are too stupid to tell the difference).

I agree with the last 2 posters. Also, in the 100-200 NL, weak players and players who dont have the bankroll tend to play very tight. This means that when they raise preflop you can narrow their hands down to like 12-15 hands. This allows you to take down a lot of pots on the flop with a nice c/r instead because most of the time they will miss the flops.

[subzero]

With a big draw, I'll check the turn if I miss. LP may check behind for fear of being check-raised twice. With TPTK, I'm check-raising a flop that I think LP would've folded if I lead. The C/R gives him a chance to bluff at the pot. If he calls the C/R, I check the turn (slow down) and see how the action develops. C/R'ing is a powerful play. I use it occasionally to make it harder for people to read me.

[JaBlue]

Sometimes against thinking lags I like to check-raise small as if I'm saying "I know you continuation bet a lot, I want to know if my marginal hand is good - please just fold" with a big hand to try to get them to 3-bet bluff so I can 4-bet all in them.

This comes up very rarely though

[directscooter]

My check raising statistics are absolutely gross, like almost never. One spot I have been thinking about has come directly from the Party split. The tables are so rock and TAG filled that I feel that I can almost get anyone to lay down an overpair or missed overs.
Situation: Effective stacks are 120BB, I get dealt 99 in EP, call, one of the 12/3 rocks that seems to make laydowns with big pocket pairs if played at, raises 4*BB, all others fold. Flop comes out something with nothing over a 10, but no nine. I check, he C-B's and I check raise quickly. Will this work? I am assuming it would also help if the board was 3 to the flush or straight. I have not done it yet, but I am thinking about trying it. Of course you have to be sure this is not the same guy who pays off when you hit your set. If he calls, it may go check,check on the turn, giving you an extra chance to hit your limited outs, since he is fearing another check raise, and if he bets at it, and you don't have the odds, fold. At worst, it may help you get paid off when you hit your set on him. You could also lead the turn especially if a scare card hits.

[Hoopster81]

The main spot that I check-raise is out of the blind when I flop top pair with a suspect kicker. If it checks around, and someone in LP takes a stab at it, I'll usually hit 'em with a check-raise.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
My check raising statistics are absolutely gross, like almost never. One spot I have been thinking about has come directly from the Party split. The tables are so rock and TAG filled that I feel that I can almost get anyone to lay down an overpair or missed overs.
Situation: Effective stacks are 120BB, I get dealt 99 in EP, call, one of the 12/3 rocks that seems to make laydowns with big pocket pairs if played at, raises 4*BB, all others fold. Flop comes out something with nothing over a 10, but no nine. I check, he C-B's and I check raise quickly. Will this work? I am assuming it would also help if the board was 3 to the flush or straight. I have not done it yet, but I am thinking about trying it. Of course you have to be sure this is not the same guy who pays off when you hit your set. If he calls, it may go check,check on the turn, giving you an extra chance to hit your limited outs, since he is fearing another check raise, and if he bets at it, and you don't have the odds, fold. At worst, it may help you get paid off when you hit your set on him. You could also lead the turn especially if a scare card hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good example of a use for c/r-ing. This is perhaps the only time I use a c/r.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
The main spot that I check-raise is out of the blind when I flop top pair with a suspect kicker. If it checks around, and someone in LP takes a stab at it, I'll usually hit 'em with a check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one play I rarely make. Mainly because are in the total dark on your opponents holdings, and your are OOP in a (potentially) bigger pot. I much prefer to c/c and re-evaluate on the turn (mainly for pot control). This, of course, is situational.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
Another reason to C/R is to tell the table that a check from you doesn't always mean weakness. This assumes that the table is paying attention to your play (which isn't always true at these stakes). I occasionally C/R with big draws and TPTK to pick off a late-position bluffer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do this when a lag starts betting whenever I check. Great for metagame. Even today at the 25s at euro a maniac was trying to run me over till i c/red him twice. then he slowed down (I think these were turn and river checkraises tho). same purpose tho, sometimes I do it if I think someone will realize just so they know a check isn't giving up the hand.

[aces_dad]

This is a very common application of a c/r from limit but I haven't used it much in NL yet. Commonly in limit it's then followed up by a lead on the turn especially HU/SH.

Problem with this approach is if called on flop/turn you're OOP with marginal holdings.

[xorbie]

By the way, against some villains, there is what I like to call "reverse continuation betting." This is basically where I raise PF, villain calls on me with position, I check flop, villain autobets. This happens if me and villain are both playing LAG, and is definitely a situation I run into pretty often. Check raise flop here is sexy.

Also, another example of a checkraise. Several reasons for me to do this. One is that a bet is -EV, because I get called by any J and probably some other middle pairs, plus also some flush draws, and I end up check/folding the river too often. Checking I like more, if it gets checked through ok I get a free look, if someone bets they are likely FOS given preflop and flop action, and if there are multiple callers to a bet I can just call getting decent pot + implied odds.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($99)
MP ($96)
CO ($91.37)
Button ($107.05)
SB ($87.90)
Hero ($235.19)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $3</font>, CO calls $3, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $2, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($12.50) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($12.50) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $6</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $24</font>, UTG folds, MP folds.

Final Pot: $42.50