Getting 5 bet on the turn!!!

[Ulysses]

Playing a 15-30 game where there is not too much aggression before the flop, but can be after the flop, where a lot of people like to push draws and dubious pairs. I have 2c2s. I limp, prepared to release if I missed. 3 limpers behind me. Blinds check. 6 way action.

Flop: 2h-Tc-9d. Checked to me, and I bet, thinking I have the best hand. I get called by UTG+1 (PH, a pretty solid, somewhat tricky guy) and two other dudes.

Turn: 9h. I'm pretty sure I have the best hand when it goes check, I check, PH bets, Dude calls, Dude folds. I checkraise, PH 3-bets! Dude folds. I 4 bet. PH 5-bets!!!

What do you do?

[elindauer]

I can't think of a single hand he can have that he could five bet legitimately that you can beat. He's got ten's full, 9's full, or quad 9's.

Can your opponent really be five betting with a straight draw? With top pair? With trip 9s? Highly unlikely.

Unless this player is hyper-loose and wild, you can probably fold. Once players have seen you lay down a hand for a five bet though, be prepared to call a bit more than you normally would on subsequent hands...

my 2 cents

[J.A.Sucker]

Nice lead-in paragraph, chief /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif Hardly sounds like the "loose passive" game I've heard about at Artichoke's.

Against PH here, you are in a tough spot. I suppose I'd call down, but I'm pretty sure that you're beaten. Hopefully, he has 99 and a 2 comes off on the river. Then you get 50 grand. Otherwise, it looks like you're gonna lose 60 more bucks. He may have a straight flush draw, but you can't do much but call. I'll never fold here in this game.

Other suggestions:

1. Get a brown paper bag from Tina. Use it for vomit collection.

2. Tell PH that there's a great Double-Hand game going (no house drop for the next 15 min. on banker hands). He may just push you the pot and run over there.

3. Ask for 1 chip back /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

These are just my opinions, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[jen]

If PH is the guy that I think that he is, then you're toast. I'd be done with the hand.

I suspect you called him down though and lost to nines full of tens.

[bad beetz]

I think check-raising the turn is bad. bet and get raised if someone hit a nine. They'll probably put you on a ten. Coming from you, checking when the 9 pairs is suspicious as hell.

Depending on the guy, you can pretty much muck to the 5-bet although that would be a little spectacular. He wouldn't go 5 without a boat and you have the shittiest boat.

However, there are maniacs in that game that will 8 bet with the second nut and redraws, so maybe you are ahead.

[Lee Jones]

So I don't understand what's interesting about this hand. Unless we're going to discuss the wisdom of 4-betting.

I mean, he's saying "I have the nuts or epsilon close to it." You have an extremely good hand, but far from the nuts.

If you're into monster laydowns and you know your man, then you say, "Ah, I was just kidding..." and fold. Tommy can do this; I can't. Me, I say, "Ah, I was just fooling around." and call, planning to river quads and lose six more bets to quad 9's.

Seriously, call twice and expect to lose. Or fold and forget about it. But you should have never 4-bet in the first place.

Regards, Lee

[mike l.]

[mike l.]

"Hopefully, he has 99 and a 2 comes off on the river. Then you get 50 grand."

that much? holy cow then you have to see the river card. talk about your implied odds! you will have to fold on the river if you dont catch your 2 though.

[jen]

No way PH has got pocket 9s. PH is solid. First, he'd never limp with pocket 9s UTG+1. He'd raise to isolate that weak UTG player who limped in with pocket 2s. Second, if he's got quads, the guy's sharp enough to let another card slide off (in case of a possible jackpot) and raise the river instead of five-betting the turn.

PH has got 9Ts or else I'm totally wrong about who this guy is.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

U- As Lee notes, "he's saying "I have the nuts or epsilon close to it." /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Since there is an "epsilon" involved, you must fold NOW /forums/images/icons/cool.gif . Really, just fold it . Gone and forgotten. Perhaps you have learned why Andy and Babe hate those pesky deuces. LGPG, Babe /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

[offTopic]

I mean, he's saying "I have the nuts or epsilon close to it."

Did you, Jim Geary, and Tom Weideman all go to college together? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[elysium]

hi ulysses
i'm looking at the turn check. ulysses, your opponent must have had his chips in hand, and also a long established record of never failing to bet when he has his chips in hand, in order for checking to be correct here. notice also the 4 or 5 rule.

you check-raise, so you know that your opponent will bet and likely call a raise. but your set is hidden. if he is holding T9, your set is very, very well hidden. also post flop, draws are semi-bluffed in this game, and T9 has given someone a draw or two pair.

when the compact hits on the turn, you need to consider two things; 1) your opponents will not bet unless they have a piece of the compact board, thus a possible full-house; 2) in the event of a full-house, your check-raise will be reraised; but ulysses, you have a full-house too, meaning....

when you have an aggressive post flop going, and you have a strong hand, and a dangerous looking compact board (that may be checked down or raised, but possibly not called) it's always better to bet out BECAUSE OF THE LIKELIHOOD OF BEING RAISED; well, ok....but i want to show you what happens when youre raised.

you MUST reraise. awwww ulysses, it's....it's.....oh ok not mandatory, but doggonit you and i are going to reraise pure and simple. the foolishly greedy factor kicks in with justification. and if there is a reason in the sun not to reraise, we'll listen tomorrow. right now were reraising. but notice that our reraise is a 3 bet. when you have the non-nuts, you want your 3-bet called. but when you check-raise and your opponent 3-bets, he wants his 3-bet to be called. what's the difference? well, when your 4 bet is called, you have lower ev than when your 3 bet is called. why? because there is a greater chance that the call may be with a stronger hand or the nuts. notice also that when he 3 bets, we 4 bet. why? because if we call, not only are we doing exactly what our opponent wants, albeit we don't know that he doesn't have the nuts, we don't know this, but we definately know that our call of a 3 bet gives our opponent higher ev than our call of a 4 bet. why? because we know that whenever we 3 bet, we want a call, not a raise; it's better ev. we know this. we don't know if he has the nuts, but in the very likely case that he doesn't, he does not want us to 4 bet.

what does all this mean? it's obvious; we want to get that initial 3 bet in first, before our opponent does, if it looks like a three bet is very possible to probable. we want to get it in first unless?........unless we have the nuts. then we want our opponent to get the 3 bet in first. and if we call his 3 bet when we have the nuts, does that give him higher ev.? oh yea. we call his 3 bet, he always has higher ev. so with the nuts, we always 4 bet his 3 bet. so....unless we have the nuts, we want to get the 3 bet in first. when we have the nuts, we want our opponent to get his 3 bet in first. why? because now we know for a fact he wants us to call. it would give him higher ev, so we reraise. how can we adjust the timing a little so that we get that 3 bet in first? how can we adjust, ever so slightly, the timing so that our opponent makes the 3 bet when we have the nuts? and were excited, we have a lower boat, top set, or gapped straight over a suspected set. with all the excitement, we don't want to make a mistake. it's simple ulysses;

when you have the nuts, you check-raise. period, class over.

come on, come on.....here it comes. not you ulysses, the two year olds are going to pin me down, so before they do, conditions; aggressive-ish, strong hand behind you that will not likely call, but rather fold or raise, and a dangerous looking compact board, (T9, JT, QJ, KQ, AK), and HU. time this playing conditions so that you get the 3 bet in first. 90% of the time you will be HU in this situation by the turn, but if not, revert to standard multi-way play.

[andyfox]

[Ulysses]

I felt he would 3-bet with a nine. Not a problem. But once he 5-bet, I knew I was toast. I pretty confidently put him on exactly T9. But then I thought maybe he actually has 99. And if so, I'm getting huge implied odds to chase my 2 w/ a $100k jackpot. So, I called. And then, well, I check-called the river for no good reason except that I'm not Tommy Angelo, or at that moment, any good player. And I wanted to see the T9. But he showed me something slightly better - TT.

Lee: So I don't understand what's interesting about this hand.
Most interesting to me was that after blowing a chance recently, this was another missed opportunity to execute an Angeloesque 4-bet and fold to a 5-bet.

planning to river quads and lose six more bets to quad 9's.
As Mr. Sucker pointed out, since this was AJs, I was hoping to river quads and lose to quad nines, winning $50k in the process.

But you should have never 4-bet in the first place.
Yep. Of course, as elysium points out, I should have been putting in the third bet, not the fourth.

Jen: No way PH has got pocket 9s. PH has got 9Ts or else I'm totally wrong about who this guy is.

Surprising, wasn't it? It's who you think it is, but he had gotten 3 or 4 bad beats recently in the session, so he had decided to stop raising pocket pairs for a while.

elysium: Everyone should read your post to see exactly why I want to be in position to get in the 3-bet, not the 4-bet, in this situation.

[Ulysses]

I do too. Even more impressive and insightful, though, is elysium's response to Mason's last Hand to Talk About. If you didn't see it, you should really go take a look. A must read.

[J_V]

I got fed up with some of your chickenscratch posts in the early days, so I stopped checkin in on you Elsium. Boy have I been missing out. That post was extremely good and more important original. Damn good post.

[Lee Jones]

Did you, Jim Geary, and Tom Weideman all go to college together?

Jim and Tom have each forgotten more about math than I ever knew. I blush simply to be mentioned in such company.

For those of you that wonder about the use of the term epsilon, math.weenies like to use it to mean an arbitarily small value, often when explaining how continuous functions work:

http://math.hws.edu/eck/math130/lab4/

And that's the last I'm going to say about math, in case Geary or Weideman are reading this.

Regards, Lee

[offTopic]

Jim and Tom have each forgotten more about math than I ever knew. I blush simply to be mentioned in such company.

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't ask if you took the same classes. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

I graduated from UC-Berkeley the same year as Jeff Kent fercryinoutloud...it would appear our earning potentials have taken somewhat divergent paths.

[DaBartman]

If PH is solid as you say and has a few moves, I give him the T9 and crying all the way, pay him off. You know him, I don't. Is he capable of this play with the nut flush draw? Not very smart given that T9 is a common limping hand. Would he 4-bet with A9? You beat that, but he can still suck out. 'Cause of the A9, I pay off.

[Ulysses]

Would he 4-bet with A9? You beat that, but he can still suck out. 'Cause of the A9, I pay off.

That's hilarious.

You see, as I said in my results post, I was sure I was beaten when he 5-bet, most likely by T9.

But in addition to chasing my quads, I thought "OK, maybe there's a sub-1% chance he puts me on something like K9 and is re-raising me with A9. That would rule."

Of course, just to make things perfect, what hit on the river? You got it, an Ace. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Although "epsilon" is an "arbitrarily small positive value in mathematical analysis", it is also the 5th letter of the Greek alphabet. I thought Lee was using the "Greek" term vs. the "Geek" one. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif At any rate, a new poker term has been created by Lee. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif We can use epsilon as a noun or a verb, as in "It was an epsilon", or "I epsiloned him" on the turn. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif LGPG, Babe /forums/images/icons/heart.gif