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tour de force
10-19-2005, 01:03 PM
BB is unknown.

3/6 hold'em <font color="blue">(9 handed)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 7http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, <font color="red">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls

Flop: (14 SB) Khttp://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="red">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, SB calls, <font color="red">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero caps</font>, SB calls, BB calls

Turn: (13.5 BB) 6http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="red">BB Bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero....

Pot at this point is 18.5 BB.

When villian 3-bets the turn, I knew I was either way ahead or way behind.

If you're villian, what are you 3-betting the turn with against an unknown aggressor?

Should I give him credit for being somewhat solid given he has just sat down or am I to assume he is weak?
brettbrettr
10-19-2005, 01:12 PM
I'd just limp pre-flop. You're not likely buying the button from EP and this is likely to be at least a 5 way pot. You're playing for set value here.

I might like to cap the turn and mayeb just call a lead from the BB on the river. It depends on a read though.

If i'm villan I have KK here and you're totally fuct.
Nick C
10-19-2005, 01:19 PM
AA is 6 combos, and AK is another 12, while KK is only 3 combos. So that looks good, but at this point if Villain just has AK, he really shouldn't think he's doing any better than chopping.

If Villain has AA, then from his perspective AK is 6 combos, while KK is 3. He also might start thinking about your actual 77 (3 more combos) a little bit. He may in fact not be thinking about combos much at all, but it has become pretty clear you both love your hands, and there really wasn't a whole lot to be betting on that flop. (And you wouldn't think, for instance, that someone with just an underpair to the king would be going nuts.)

Since you didn't cap preflop, Villain may have you on AK and may think his AA is good. (He may not be considering pocket pairs as low as 77.)

Villain can't 5-bet the turn, and I think I'd go ahead and cap. After that, I'd probably call down a river lead or bet if checked to (planning to call a checkraise).

I certainly won't be shocked if he shows me KK, though (especially if my turn cap doesn't slow him down).
10-19-2005, 01:22 PM
I think you're looking at KK &gt;50% of the time here. I would probably just call down.
callmedonnie
10-19-2005, 01:30 PM
I don't think I can resist the temptation to cap the turn. If he leads again I pray to see Aces.

Moral of the story: don't play against unknowns. It sucks, doesn't it?
brettbrettr
10-19-2005, 01:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]

don't play against unknowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unavoidable. And unknowns become knowns fairly quickly. A few played hands is enough to get a read on someone's play. No, it doesn't tell you what they do with u.i big cards on the turn HU. But you can gather a lot from a hand or two.
callmedonnie
10-19-2005, 01:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

don't play against unknowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unavoidable. And unknowns become knowns fairly quickly. A few played hands is enough to get a read on someone's play. No, it doesn't tell you what they do with u.i big cards on the turn HU. But you can gather a lot from a hand or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was a joke. having some sympathy for what looks like a set over set spot, which sucks from the low end. i swear i wish there was a sarcasm option in the instant ubb code list.
brettbrettr
10-19-2005, 01:43 PM
Every time someone accuses me of missing something sarcastic I place the blame squarely on them. Because I'm infallible? No. Because of their presentation? Yes.
callmedonnie
10-19-2005, 01:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Every time someone accuses me of missing something sarcastic I place the blame squarely on them. Because I'm infallible? No. Because of their presentation? Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll infallibly present MFUYA.
brettbrettr
10-19-2005, 02:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'll infallibly present MFUYA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made that way too easy. NH, though.
Yads
10-19-2005, 02:30 PM
cap turn, call river if he leads.
10-19-2005, 03:26 PM
It looks like you're up against either top set of bottom set. The way the betting went, trip K's look most likely. After getting so much resistance, I would check and call down
10-19-2005, 03:27 PM
Cap turn and call call/bet river.
If the turn bet weren't a cap I would just call.
Pog0
10-19-2005, 03:44 PM
No reads suck. If villian is a solid player, he has KK &gt;90% of the time.
bobhalford
10-19-2005, 05:45 PM
Looks like AA believing you have AK since you raise pf. KK is also a strong possibility so I would just slow down a bit on the turn and call a river bet.
BigBrother
10-19-2005, 06:40 PM
After you capped the flop, a solid player is only 3-betting this turn with top set.

That said, there are plenty of reasons why this 3/6 villain could be playing less than solid.

Calling down = 2BB

Capping and calling a check-raise = 4BB (likelyhood of a river checkraise seems very small, if he's got KK and you cap, he's going to keep firing)

Capping and calling the river = 3BB

I would cap the turn and call or bet/call the river, and 'damn da luck' if villain shows you KK.
10-19-2005, 07:15 PM
definately cap turn and call a river bet. you're ahead way to often to pass up this extra bet on the turn against an unknown. i think it's important to note on this hand that your hand is well disguised. IF your opponent has AA here, there is not really anything to indicate that he is behind at this point to a pfr that did not cap the action preflop. however, if you cap the turn, your hand is well defined, and him betting again on the river is an indication that you are beat enough that a raise is not warrented on the river.

edit: i usually dont raise this preflop in a loose game.
chesspain
10-19-2005, 07:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (13.5 BB) 6http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="red">BB Bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero....


...puts in the minimum from this point forward in order to get to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
10-19-2005, 07:56 PM
One thing that is overlooked is: do you have a read on the SB? If the SB is solid or even somewhat tight, or even average loose/tight, he or she must have a king to cold call twice on the flop like that. There are no draws, and SB should not have QQ-TT due to preflop action. If the SB is a fish then anything goes, but I'd still think fish-SB has a king a lot too.

With that in mind, there are: one KK combo, 8 AK, 6 AA + junk (including K7, which we cannot entirely discount with no reads). Hence, I don't think it is a horrible play to raise or even cap the river too. Don't know if I'd have the balls to do it myself, though. Am I crazy for saying this?
callmedonnie
10-19-2005, 08:01 PM
I really like that thinking, but that would require on hell of a read on the small blind. Since there was no read on the villain I think it is safe to say that the likelihood of a read on sb isn't good (new table?).

I do think this is an excellent observation. And no, I'm not sure that I have the balls to do this either.
tour de force
10-20-2005, 10:40 AM
For those curious, when villain 3-bets the turn I felt very strongly he either had AA or KK. Based on his pre-flop OOP 3-bet and his refusal to slow down after all the strength I had shown, I decided in this probable WA/WB situation to call the turn 3-bet. BB leads river, Hero calls. Villain shows AA and MHIG.

My real uncertainty was whether it was unreasonable of me to slow down and begin to truly consider KK. I was curious what others would do. From the responses here, a lot of people want to cap the turn. Others don't. Also, I do like the SB observation; had I had a read on the SB I could have definitely factored that into my decision. Overall, I think both actions seem within the realm of acceptability.

thanks for all the thoughts guys..