JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)

[molawn2mo]

party 10/20 full table

I open raise 3rd in with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Fairly ABC (never seems to get out-of-line) multi-tabling non-rockish, maybe 21/9/1.5, villain calls in the BB

6 /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif
villain checks, I ??? and why

edit to clarify for preflop action, sorry.

[Joe Tall]

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Fairly ABC (never seems to get out-of-line) multi-tabling non-rockish, maybe 21/9/1.5, villain completes in the BB

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Completes?

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villain checks, I ??? and why

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Bet. You likely have the best hand and if he doesn't get out of line much this looks like a fairly easy hand to play.

Bet.

What's BB have here? AJ, AT, small pair etc. That'd be my guess.

[molawn2mo]

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Bet. You likely have the best hand and if he doesn't get out of line much this looks like a fairly easy hand to play.

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Joe:

When we are c/red on the flop (even a fairly straight forward villain will do this with a variety of hands) you can't feel good about your prospects. By betting the flop, aren't we handing villain a golden opportunity to make a play on us, a play that can be interpreted as for value, as a semi-bluff or as an outright bluff. That is to say, after he c/r us, we still do not know where we are and he has the initiative.

By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy? By checking behind haven't we maintained the initiative? And, yes, by checking behind we may be giving up some value, but if there was value on the flop it ought still be there on the turn with the bad turn cards (A,Q) giving us additional river outs.

The preceding is not meant to be argumentative but, rather, a display of what may turn out to be my deluded logic. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Assuming you call the flop c/r, how do you proceed on a non-spade turn after villain bets out?

Is a spade on the turn an auto fold?

The above issues and all of the issues that arise when villain c/r the flop or c/c the flop seem to be avoidable by checking behind on the flop.

Hi Mo-

I like this line and perhaps doing stuff like this will help me from losing money in smallish-medium sized pots. I think we fold outright to a spade on the turn if he bets it, and if he checks we bet out. In fact, I think we bet this no matter what comes out on the turn if it's checked to us. If he bets and no overcards to JJ come on the turn, I think I'm calling down.

This works because by not betting the flop, he doesn't know if we're playing a monster spade or slowplaying AK or whether we missed a hand completely. He is unlikely to bet into us on the turn when a fourth spade comes unless he actually has the flush because he doesn't know whether we have any real strength. Agree?

[Joe Tall]

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By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy?

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Armed him heavily to just bet out w/anything on the turn.

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Assuming you call the flop c/r, how do you proceed on a non-spade turn after villain bets out?

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Raise the turn and take a free show if you feel he will continue to bet a draw, HU.

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Is a spade on the turn an auto fold?

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Auto-raise in most situations if your opponent is capable to laying down a K and seems he is.

[SeaEagle]

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By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy? By checking behind haven't we maintained the initiative?

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I'm completely confused by your logic.

If I were villian, I would be betting any turn card. How have you maintained the initiative?

Having said that, this is a 2BB pot. You don't want to invest another 2 or 3 BBs chasing a pot you can't win. If you're going to make a mistake by playing too passively (which I believe you're doing by checking the flop), the time to make such a mistake is when you don't lose much if you're wrong.

[molawn2mo]

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By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy? By checking behind haven't we maintained the initiative?

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I'm completely confused by your logic.

If I were villian, I would be betting any turn card. How have you maintained the initiative?

Having said that, this is a 2BB pot. You don't want to invest another 2 or 3 BBs chasing a pot you can't win. If you're going to make a mistake by playing too passively (which I believe you're doing by checking the flop), the time to make such a mistake is when you don't lose much if you're wrong.

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You would not be the only one confused by my logic! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

That said, are you saying to me that you can not interpret checking behind on the flop as a play that can/would/should be made by a strong hand? Since I assume that you can see how the flop check behind can be made with a K or AA or /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif or TT or KK, how would you, as villain, interpret hero c/r of your betting out on any turn?

[molawn2mo]

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By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy?

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Armed him heavily to just bet out w/anything on the turn.

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Assuming you call the flop c/r, how do you proceed on a non-spade turn after villain bets out?

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Raise the turn and take a free show if you feel he will continue to bet a draw, HU.

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Is a spade on the turn an auto fold?

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Auto-raise in most situations if your opponent is capable to laying down a K and seems he is.

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First, I have not met a 10/20 player that is laying down his K on the flop! So that idea never entered my mind; that is, and maybe this is where my problem is in understanding your logic... I see no fold equity on the flop.

OK... here goes and assuming no fold equity on betting the flop then my flop bet, in order to be correct, must be for value. My logic says that whatever value I have on the flop will, similarly, be there on the turn.

Would your line change if it were a given that you could not fold out a K on the flop or on a non- /images/graemlins/spade.gif turn?

[molawn2mo]

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Hi Mo-

I like this line and perhaps doing stuff like this will help me from losing money in smallish-medium sized pots. I think we fold outright to a spade on the turn if he bets it, and if he checks we bet out. In fact, I think we bet this no matter what comes out on the turn if it's checked to us. If he bets and no overcards to JJ come on the turn, I think I'm calling down.

This works because by not betting the flop, he doesn't know if we're playing a monster spade or slowplaying AK or whether we missed a hand completely. He is unlikely to bet into us on the turn when a fourth spade comes unless he actually has the flush because he doesn't know whether we have any real strength. Agree?

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This was precisely my thinking. Though this thinking is anathema to general 2+2 teaching, methinks.

Heretical, maybe! Wrong, maybe! Right, maybe?

[BigBiceps]

BET

He could be defending his blind with any number of hands. Plus, since you said he doesn't get out of line, then you can fold to a check raise because he is not BSing you.

[Joe Tall]

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First, I have not met a 10/20 player that is laying down his K on the flop! So that idea never entered my mind; that is, and maybe this is where my problem is in understanding your logic... I see no fold equity on the flop.

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I don't either and is likely why I never metioned anything about a K folding the flop nor picked any line to get a king to fold the flop.

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OK... here goes and assuming no fold equity on betting the flop then my flop bet, in order to be correct, must be for value.

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Yes.

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My logic says that whatever value I have on the flop will, similarly, be there on the turn.

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Yes, on both streets and I like money.

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Would your line change if it were a given that you could not fold out a K on the flop ....?

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Who said anything about a K folding the flop?

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... or on a non- turn ?

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eh?

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Plus, since you said he doesn't get out of line, then you can fold to a check raise because he is not BSing you.

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Lots of "straightforward" players will check raise with a big spade as a semibluff. Mo's reason, I think, for checking the turn is to avoid being played in a small pot when he's probably ahead. This is why I like it. I understand that betting the flop will get him to fold any number of hands, but many of those hands are drawing very thin against Mo as is (low pocket pairs, non spade connectors that haven't paired up) and by waiting until the turn he might get paid off. I can't fold to a check-raise here which is why I don't want to bet the flop.

[BigBiceps]

Why can't you fold to a check raise?

If he wants to get frisky with like Qs 8c or some other marginal hand you are only a slight favorite anyway.

pokenum -h jd jh - qs 8c -- 6s ks ts
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ks Ts 6s
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd Jh 543 54.85 447 45.15 0 0.00 0.548
Qs 8c 447 45.15 543 54.85 0 0.00 0.452

Most of the hands he checkraises you with though, you will be dominated.
I don't think you can give a free card here to someone with like the 7s sitting in his hand.

[molawn2mo]

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Would your line change if it were a given that you could not fold out a K on the flop ....?

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Who said anything about a K folding the flop?

my bad, I mis-read your comment

... or on a non- /images/graemlins/spade.gif turn it should have read.

In any event, the basic difference in perception is that you appear to believe that we are ahead more than I, and when behind, have some fold equity if we maintain an aggressive stance throughout. I gotta tell ya, Joe, that if you, as hero, c/r me, as villain, on the flop and the turn as you seem to advocate then when you showdown JJ, win or lose, you are getting a big fat "lagass" "will hyper-aggressively push you off hands" note. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I view my holding as showdownable but I am not willing to be aggressive on more than 1 street. My street would have been the turn (c/r to villain;s anticipated bet but that being the last monies that I put in). Yours may be all 3 streets or do you give up on the river if villain leads?

In reality, and this is the reality of the hand (though the discussion so far is probably more instructional than any discussion that is likely to follow),

party 10/20 full table

I open raise 3rd in with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Fairly ABC (never seems to get out-of-line) multi-tabling non-rockish, maybe 21/9/1.5, villain calls in the BB

6 /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif
villain checks, I check behind

K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
villain checks (my perception is that this is a dangerous bet for villain - no matter what card turned - not an autobet because it can get very expensive for him and he may be drawing dead), I bet, he calls

K /images/graemlins/club.gif

villain cheks, I bet, he calls and loses with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Joe Tall]

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I view my holding as showdownable but I am not willing to be aggressive on more than 1 street.

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But you can make money on every street and I like money. So bet.

[molawn2mo]

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Why can't you fold to a check raise?

If he wants to get frisky with like Qs 8c or some other marginal hand you are only a slight favorite anyway.

pokenum -h jd jh - qs 8c -- 6s ks ts
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ks Ts 6s
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd Jh 543 54.85 447 45.15 0 0.00 0.548
Qs 8c 447 45.15 543 54.85 0 0.00 0.452

Most of the hands he checkraises you with though, you will be dominated.
I don't think you can give a free card here to someone with like the 7s sitting in his hand.

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I see this as bad on many levels:

1. folding to the flop c/r maybe folding the best hand; that is, if you are going to bet you must be able to call the c/r
2. metagame considerations
3. i am by no means an expert on this type of mathematical analysis - to say the opposite would be closer to the truth - but i believe your table reflects exactly what i have been saying; that is, that our equity is marginal on the flop so why get into a aggro battle where there is no fold equity involved. Said another way... wait until the turn to make your play when the scenario is more clear and you can more profitably force a spade draw to act incorrectly.
4. Any singleton spade the is in BB range of hands is continuing so your comment about the free-card does not make sense to me.

[BigBiceps]

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4. Any singleton spade the is in BB range of hands is continuing so your comment about the free-card does not make sense to me.

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I think a medium to low singleton spade with no pair will fold. That is the basis of my play and my comments and it is why we disagree regarding the course of action.

[BigBiceps]

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2. metagame considerations


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Please explain what you mean by metagame considerations?

Do you think people are going to start check raising bluffing you so that you will fold?

If I think someone is doing this taking shots at me, I will 3 bet them with nothing.

[molawn2mo]

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4. Any singleton spade the is in BB range of hands is continuing so your comment about the free-card does not make sense to me.

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I think a medium to low singleton spade with no pair will fold. That is the basis of my play and my comments and it is why we disagree regarding the course of action.

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There are virtually no low to medium singleton spades that are not paired that are in BB calling range though on a frisky day A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif may be within range. And, if it is within range, then he will call it down.

[sy_or_bust]

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If he wants to get frisky with like Qs 8c or some other marginal hand you are only a slight favorite anyway.

pokenum -h jd jh - qs 8c -- 6s ks ts
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ks Ts 6s
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd Jh 543 54.85 447 45.15 0 0.00 0.548
Qs 8c 447 45.15 543 54.85 0 0.00 0.452


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Try to avoid this sort of showdown analysis before thinking about the situation. If Villain checkraises a draw, you can call and 1) raise a safe turn or fold a poor one. If Villain's checkraise means a K, and he will fold to a 4th spade, you can call and raise a spade turn, else fold. More often, Villain has a combined range of checkraising hands, when the right play is more difficult to find (and not necessarily raising any turn).

These are the dynamics of the hand...showdown analysis doesn't help at all - but position, and the turn card, do.

[molawn2mo]

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2. metagame considerations


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Please explain what you mean by metagame considerations?

Do you think people are going to start check raising bluffing you so that you will fold?

If I think someone is doing this taking shots at me, I will 3 bet them with nothing.

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Yes, that is what I mean. Your knee jerk reaction saying that you will 3 bet them with nothing is a LAG losing mentality. It is misplaced aggression, imho. In this case, I just see it as better to avoid this particular confrontation.

Heads up your approach has some merit. But there are 8 others at a table with you and each of them may be taking shots at you too. You can not fire back at all of them.