Fronting Someone Money

[KaneKungFu123]

There is a player who I trust am confident that they are capable to beat the Party 1k/2k. They are going to have time availible to play online now, but their funds are tied up in other business ventures. (im not going to name the person.)

I want to find a deal that is fair for both of us. Here is one of my first ideas:

Any money I lend has to be paid back to me with an extra 35% of the total sum on top no matter what cirumstances arise. So if they borrow 10K, they'll pay back $13.5K. If he borrows $20K, he'll pay back $27K.

He starts in the Party $1,000 games.

I will start him off with $10K and monitor his play. If he loses that $10K I will look over his play and decide if I want to continue backing him to play in this game. If I feel that he can still beat the game, then I will simply lend him another $10K.

If he only needs to borrow $10K and then reachs a total bankroll of $35K, then he will pay me back $13.5K and our financial relationship will end.

If he needs to borrow $20,000, then when his Bankroll reachs $50K, he will pay me $27K and our financial relationship will end.

If he loses the entire 20K, we work out some deal for him to pay me back long term.

The way I see it, Im confident he can beat the Party 5/10 multitabling for a minimum of $200/hr. He plans to play 25hr/wk. Thats 5K/week. So in two months he should be able to pay me back and use that capital to make alot more in the future.

[amoeba]

thats a steep vig.

[arod15]

The first looks good. But generally, when you spot if they loose the roller eats it. Doesnt make them pay it back. Im in a similar situation. I might get rolled to play 5-10 and 10-25 NL. He wants half of my winnings until I end the relationship. I think that is too steep....

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
The first looks good. But generally, when you spot if they loose the roller eats it. Doesnt make them pay it back. Im in a similar situation. I might get rolled to play 5-10 and 10-25 NL. He wants half of my winnings until I end the relationship. I think that is too steep....

[/ QUOTE ]

What's half of 0?

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
The first looks good. But generally, when you spot if they loose the roller eats it. Doesnt make them pay it back. Im in a similar situation. I might get rolled to play 5-10 and 10-25 NL. He wants half of my winnings until I end the relationship. I think that is too steep....

[/ QUOTE ]

50/50 for your man to take all the risk is fair.

OP, is he giving you any sort of collateral or writing in paper? I don't like the idea of loaning people money to play poker but am considering doing so myself if hte oppurtunity arises.

[mgsimpleton]

i can't do that tough math, which is good, since the answer is an irrelevant amount for the purposes of kkf's proposed deal in which he must be paid back in full.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The first looks good. But generally, when you spot if they loose the roller eats it. Doesnt make them pay it back. Im in a similar situation. I might get rolled to play 5-10 and 10-25 NL. He wants half of my winnings until I end the relationship. I think that is too steep....

[/ QUOTE ]

What's half of 0?

[/ QUOTE ]

I took math classes, that is precisely, ZERO.

[arod15]

Constant flaming on me I don't remember ever starting anything with you Yeti. And I could care less if you think I can or cannot beat these games there are many people who I've played with that know I can. Dont jack this post for no reason. I just mentioned my situation as it seemed relevent to posters question, so I dont understand the need to flame.....

[AZK]

He's going to need more than 10k if it's party 6max...

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
Constant flaming on me I don't remember ever starting anything with you Yeti. And I could care less if you think I can or cannot beat these games there are many people who I've played with that know I can. Dont jack this post for no reason. I just mentioned my situation as it seemed relevent to posters question, so I dont understand the need to flame.....

[/ QUOTE ]

now boys, you can settle this with a $1k freezeout.

good luck. i'll put in some sidebets, too.

in fact, we could set up some system where I'll take all the sidebets and pay the winners accordingly.

nothing but 2+2 hostility.

[PugX]

[ QUOTE ]
Constant flaming on me I don't remember ever starting anything with you Yeti. And I could care less if you think I can or cannot beat these games there are many people who I've played with that know I can. Dont jack this post for no reason. I just mentioned my situation as it seemed relevent to posters question, so I dont understand the need to flame.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see the flame. I was thinking the same, its a valid point. For what I know thats a rather normal deal you are describing.

/pug

[Yeti]

Sorry for hijacking Uncle Kane's thread, kids.

[Leptyne]

If you're confident that he can pay you back in the event that he loses it all then your risk is substantially reduced. This sounds a little exorbitant in that case. I would think a better deal would be to take a percentage of his earnings for a year. Something like 10% of the first $50K, 5% of the next $50K, etc. In exchange for this you would absorb a percentage of the losses, like half the first $10K, 25% of the next $10K. Pick %'s that you'd both be happy with.

This makes you a silent partner with the incentive and expertise to help him(her) succeed. In return for a greater potential return you assume some risk.

Its never a good idea to loan money to friends or family. If it's a really good friend a better deal qould be for you to turn this over to someone else to bankroll. Good friends are hard to come by. See PM.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're confident that he can pay you back in the event that he loses it all then your risk is substantially reduced. This sounds a little exorbitant in that case. I would think a better deal would be to take a percentage of his earnings for a year. Something like 10% of the first $50K, 5% of the next $50K, etc. In exchange for this you would absorb a percentage of the losses, like half the first $10K, 25% of the next $10K. Pick %'s that you'd both be happy with.

This makes you a silent partner with the incentive and expertise to help him(her) succeed. In return for a greater potential return you assume some risk.

Its never a good idea to loan money to friends or family. If it's a really good friend a better deal qould be for you to turn this over to someone else to bankroll. Good friends are hard to come by. See PM.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a long term model like this Id be willing to eat losses, even up to the entire amount. I dont know which way he'd want to go, i'll have to talk to him.

35% is too steep, you're right.

[sawseech]

if he's going to be paying back losses there's no reason to vig him that aggressively

i would vig the person you described AT MOST 3%/month flat

[mgsimpleton]

hahaha no i wasn't complaining you were hijacking the thread! i thought you meant kane was saying if he lost he didn't have to be paid back. now i understand the confusion.

oh the price we pay for having arod on ignore.

ah well, i think i can deal.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The first looks good. But generally, when you spot if they loose the roller eats it. Doesnt make them pay it back. Im in a similar situation. I might get rolled to play 5-10 and 10-25 NL. He wants half of my winnings until I end the relationship. I think that is too steep....

[/ QUOTE ]

What's half of 0?

[/ QUOTE ]wait wait wait.... are u saying i shouldnt stake arod?!? hmmmmm. maybe i should back out?

[Leaky Eye]

[ QUOTE ]
Any money I lend has to be paid back to me with an extra 35% of the total sum on top no matter what cirumstances arise. So if they borrow 10K, they'll pay back $13.5K. If he borrows $20K, he'll pay back $27K.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good lord man. Tell him to borrow from regular lenders and save himself a bundle. Or if that isn't possible tell him to borrow from the mob and save himself a little.

[tdomeski]

If you want to loan a friend money, loan a friend money and expect to get paid back what you loan him.

If you want to back a friend who you think can beat a particular game then bankroll him for the game and take a % of the profits for a given amount of time.

It sounds like you are trying to combine the two and speaking from personal experience when you do something like this with a friend it can become very cumbersome and hurt your relationship with this person.

Hope everything works out.

[KaneKungFu123]

this is our deal:

I take all losses and get 35% of your winnings. I can pull out of the deal at anytime. The agreement is for 40,000 Hands. After that, you can choose to continue or to pull out of the deal. We can start at 5/10 NL with 20 Buyins?

[Smokey_McPot]

[ QUOTE ]
this is our deal:

I take all losses and get 35% of your winnings. I can pull out of the deal at anytime. The agreement is for 40,000 Hands. After that, you can choose to continue or to pull out of the deal. We can start at 5/10 NL with 20 Buyins?

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats just downright fair if you don't mind me saying so.

GL HF GG

[KaneKungFu123]

my party transfer limit is 2800. anyone know how many transfers you are allowed?

[DcifrThs]

uh, thats not fronting kane,

thats loansharking.

Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
this is our deal:

I take all losses and get 35% of your winnings. I can pull out of the deal at anytime. The agreement is for 40,000 Hands. After that, you can choose to continue or to pull out of the deal. We can start at 5/10 NL with 20 Buyins?

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to make your option to pull out of the deal executable only after 40k hands.

Barron

[Salerosa]

Just out of curiosity because I know you say that your standard game is the PP 5/10, 10/20, how does his sitting at your table affect you? Same game or do you stay out of each others way?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity because I know you say that your standard game is the PP 5/10, 10/20, how does his sitting at your table affect you? Same game or do you stay out of each others way?

[/ QUOTE ]

i wont sit with him. im not playing party anytime soon atm.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
this is our deal:

I take all losses and get 35% of your winnings. I can pull out of the deal at anytime. The agreement is for 40,000 Hands. After that, you can choose to continue or to pull out of the deal. We can start at 5/10 NL with 20 Buyins?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm staking someone for 10/20 limit right now and have a simliar deal with 35% until he reaches x bb's earned. however i am only allowed to pull out after reviewing sessions if he ever hits a downswing of 150bb's. i think it's more fair this way because the player shouldn't have to worry about you pulling the plug on him unexpectly if things go bad, unless it's obvious he can't beat the game.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
how does his sitting at your table affect you? Same game or do you stay out of each others way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you transfer $$ to someones account, the software won't let you sit at the same table as them.

[Salerosa]

Ah this I was unaware of, makes sense.

[Matt Flynn]

Can I have $100,000 to play $50-100? You can have 75% of my net win.

Kane money goes bad easily. A borrower nor a lender be.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you transfer $$ to someones account, the software won't let you sit at the same table as them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true on Party.

[Philuva]

Ask Party to up your transfer limit, I think $4k is the max once a week.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you transfer $$ to someones account, the software won't let you sit at the same table as them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true on Party.

[/ QUOTE ]yes it is.

[MTBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you transfer $$ to someones account, the software won't let you sit at the same table as them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true on Party.

[/ QUOTE ]yes it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

[clambunny]

be careful i've never made a deal i've been happy with it. whatever money you make, you will trade a lot of stress for it

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is our deal:

I take all losses and get 35% of your winnings. I can pull out of the deal at anytime. The agreement is for 40,000 Hands. After that, you can choose to continue or to pull out of the deal. We can start at 5/10 NL with 20 Buyins?

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to make your option to pull out of the deal executable only after 40k hands.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does he need to do that?

[Emperor]

This "Please give me attention" post is sad

You should have PM'd those that would give you a knowledgeable response if you were serious.

[ QUOTE ]
This "Please give me attention" post is sad

You should have PM'd those that would give you a knowledgeable response if you were serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then we should stop all posting and start PMing each other.

The 2+2 Forums

Kane, if you can loan someone money.... and then take the money lightly. Like its not the end of the world if you get it back or not... then go for it.

And honestly man, although 20k is a lot... its not the end of the world to lose it.

Just make a deal between you and your friend, which is fair and reasonable... if you can psychologically handle it, and that should be fine.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
my party transfer limit is 2800. anyone know how many transfers you are allowed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most people have it at 3k/week

may want to send some on skins, some on stars, neteller it all out. UB probably would let you, as well.

Basicly this is just an investment for you. I would handle this like any other investment you would make. Be confident that your investment is a good one (a winning player). If it is, a 35% return on your investment is a solid one. Next, you need to look at the risk/reward ratio and if you are able to handle it. If $10K is a reasonable risk for you to gain $3.5K, then do it, if not, don't. Same goes for 20K.

[Double Down]

When taking a percentage of wins, be sure to make it clear how often you guys settle up. The shorter of a period of time it is, the worse it is for the backer. For example, taking only 1/2 the win and all of the loss is crappy for the staker if you guys settle up every day. The player needs to win twice as much as he loses just so the staker breaks even. Think about it. Day 1, win 1k, day 2, win 1k, day 3 lose 1k. The backer is actually at break even and the player is up the whole 1k. But if you were to settle up after these three sessions, you would get 500 and he'd get 500. Basically, the longer you go before settling up the better.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
This "Please give me attention" post is sad

You should have PM'd those that would give you a knowledgeable response if you were serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are an idiot.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is our deal:

I take all losses and get 35% of your winnings. I can pull out of the deal at anytime. The agreement is for 40,000 Hands. After that, you can choose to continue or to pull out of the deal. We can start at 5/10 NL with 20 Buyins?

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to make your option to pull out of the deal executable only after 40k hands.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does he need to do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The agreement is for 40,000 Hands

[/ QUOTE ]

This is barring bad play. maybe KKF would be forgiving of a few bad plays here and there but given his initial thoughts on the vig id say any addditional bad play would give KKF cause to pull out at any time. but he should plan to stick with it for 40k hands if indeed thats what the agreement was.

after 40k hands "you can choose to continue or pull out..." so they both have that option, but if KKF can pull out at anytime, he may see one early thing or experience some variance he doesn' like that makes his investment look bad and thats the end of that. Personally, id pick a smaller # of hands. say chuncks of 10k hands to look at some play and #s etc...

i think your objection to my statement is a result of this being KKF's investment which he should be able to end at any time. I agree to some extent, but at least give guidance.

Barron

[Bosox]

[ QUOTE ]
my party transfer limit is 2800. anyone know how many transfers you are allowed?


[/ QUOTE ]

If you trust him enough to stake him, it may be worth just doing a bank to bank wire or a neteller transfer. I suppose you might have to worry about tax issues there, but transferring over party seems inefficient. gl.