Stealing from other forums...

[blackaces13]

Here's a hand from another forum which was fortunately responded to by a poster who I have reason to believe is a good player. What do you guys think of the hand, the real issue seemed be a debate over the turn play:

Table is tight-agressive. 25-30 preflop. (I'm at it to clear a re-load bonus)

10 handed 3-6

Hero has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif in MP.

A bunch of tighties fold... <font color="red"> Hero raises </font> , more folds, <font color="red"> Button 3-bets </font> , SB and BB fold, <font color="red"> Hero caps </font> , Button calls.

Flop: [7/images/graemlins/heart.gif][7/images/graemlins/spade.gif][5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]

<font color="red"> Hero bets </font> , Button calls.

Turn: [A/images/graemlins/heart.gif]

Hero checks, <font color="red"> Button bets </font> , Hero calls.

River: [Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]

Hero checks, <font color="red"> Button bets </font>, Hero calls.

[blackaces13]

Negreanu, Eric Lindgren, Jennifer Harmon, and Joe Cassidy all recommend a play here that I'm pretty sure everyone on this board would disagree with.

[brettbrettr]

Bet folding the turn?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet folding the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. My assumption is that most people here recommend betting the turn however.

[brettbrettr]

Yes, most people here will recommend betting the turn. Are you going to keep up with this mystery? Why don't you just state was was recommended along with the reasons why. The forum is a good place to play a guessing game. But most prefer to discuss hands...

[Pharity]

Why? This is a WA/WB situation. Will a turn bet fold any better hands? -Nope, not even AQ is going to fold. Might a bet fold a worse hand that otherwise could have paid you off? -Yes it might fold a hand like QQ or JJ, and we dont want that. So yea, check/call the turn should be the right play.

On the river i would bet/fold. Will a worse hand like JJ bet? -No. Might a better hand check? -No. If i bet, will any worse hand raise? -No. Ok, then i should clearly bet.

[Yako]

What are the odds that OP says he should check/fold?

[brettbrettr]

You're 100% right about the wa/wb thing. I ignored the pre-flop action...

[W. Deranged]

In a somewhat similar situation, I think I recently advocated check-call turn, check-fold river. Is this what they're going for? (I think that may well be a great line here).

The idea is that when you check the turn, villain will bet with almost anything decent. Checking prevents you from getting bluff raised, and also helps to get extra bets from hands like JJ or QQ which might simply give up after the A falls. There isn't much of a river value bet here against a good player, since against a pre-flop capper, with an A on board, JJ and QQ are going to have a very hard time calling. So a river bet, unless the player is known to be very good and would follow through with another bet to fold exactly KK, is probably a value bet. Villain can't really expect you to fold once you've called the turn, because you've essentially sent the message that you are not folding (even though you might).

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? This is a WA/WB situation. Will a turn bet fold any better hands? -Nope, not even AQ is going to fold. Might a bet fold a worse hand that otherwise could have paid you off? -Yes it might fold a hand like QQ or JJ, and we dont want that. So yea, check/call the turn should be the right play.

On the river i would bet/fold. Will a worse hand like JJ bet? -No. Might a better hand check? -No. If i bet, will any worse hand raise? -No. Ok, then i should clearly bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on the turn check-call. But, about the river: is a decent player calling on this river EVER with JJ or QQ after you cap pre-flop, call the turn, and then donk, considering there is an A on board. Obviously, it depends on the player's ability, but I think these hands are folding very often and much of the time you get called you'll be shown AK or AQ.

[droolie]

Bet fold the river.

[ReptileHouse]

A reasonable pre-flop 3-bet range for the button is TT-AA, AQ, AK or so, I'd think. Possibly wider, but that's a not unreasonable set of holdings.

Hand ranges as-of the turn:

We're behind:
AA (3)
AK (6)
AQ (12)

Tied with:
KK (1)

and ahead of:
QQ (6)
JJ (6)
TT (6)

We're behind 21 and ahead of 18 with a 5BB pot before we act on the turn.

I bet out on the turn and go into WA/WB mode if raised and call down.

What's the button 3-bet PF with?

AA - JJ, AKs, AK. Any chance of AQ?

I think you're behind 1(AA) of the 6 possibilities (excluding AQ) on the flop and behind 3(AA,AKs,AK) of the 6 on the turn.

I'm thinking AA, KK would be leading out on this flop, AK is calling with overcards on this flop.

I say bet fold the turn. (What do I know)

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
A reasonable pre-flop 3-bet range for the button is TT-AA, AQ, AK or so, I'd think. Possibly wider, but that's a not unreasonable set of holdings.

Hand ranges as-of the turn:

We're behind:
AA (3)
AK (6)
AQ (12)

Tied with:
KK (1)

and ahead of:
QQ (6)
JJ (6)
TT (6)

We're behind 21 and ahead of 18 with a 5BB pot before we act on the turn.

I bet out on the turn and go into WA/WB mode if raised and call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

we're not ahead of QQ

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A reasonable pre-flop 3-bet range for the button is TT-AA, AQ, AK or so, I'd think. Possibly wider, but that's a not unreasonable set of holdings.

Hand ranges as-of the turn:

We're behind:
AA (3)
AK (6)
AQ (12)

Tied with:
KK (1)

and ahead of:
QQ (6)
JJ (6)
TT (6)

We're behind 21 and ahead of 18 with a 5BB pot before we act on the turn .

I bet out on the turn and go into WA/WB mode if raised and call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

we're not ahead of QQ

[/ QUOTE ]

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, most people here will recommend betting the turn. Are you going to keep up with this mystery? Why don't you just state was was recommended along with the reasons why. The forum is a good place to play a guessing game. But most prefer to discuss hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not playing a guessing game, I posted a hand and I'm waiting for some discussion before I post what all these pros recommended. I think its intersting because I know its not what most here would do. Also, if I post what they said then you get less people willing to disagree with such authorities on poker.

[ReptileHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
we're not ahead of QQ

[/ QUOTE ]

We are on the turn.

edit: On the river, we're behind the 3 combos of QQ. That still leaves things at about pretty even from that hand range. Button has done nothing so far to narrow that range, so as played I think we have to call this river.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
if I post what they said then you get less people willing to disagree with such authorities on poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I said to post the whole thing. I don't think anyone here is afraid of disagreeing with any of these poker players.

[blackaces13]

They all said that check call was the obvious play on the turn against almost any opponent and at any limit, none even said it was close. As for the river, the recommended play was check and make a crying call because of the pot odds. If the guy bets the river again you should expect to lose but pay off anyway.

Most posters at the other place said checking the turn was weak and you have to fire again which is what I would have expected most to advise here as well. The question was then asked of Dan N. to provide other examples of calling down OOP and he gave the following, among others:

[ QUOTE ]
You raise with KQ and get three bet by the button. Flop K-6-4 rainbow. You check raise the flop and he calls. Turn is an ACE. You check call, and maybe fold on the river to a bet, or pay it off against a tricky player.


[/ QUOTE ]

In the above situation I think this is clearly a bet/fold line since a worse hand can't possibly raise that turn unless you are playing an extreme LAG. In the original KK hand, much of the reason to check the turn was to avoid being taken off the best hand by a free showdown raise from QQ-JJ which is a legitimate concern, particularly if they are aggressive and know that you are capable of laying down a hand such as KK to a turn raise on an A high board. In the above hand however, I don't see how a reasonable player makes a move on the turn with a worse hand.

[blackaces13]

Its up for your viewing pleasure...

[brettbrettr]

link?

[blackaces13]

Sure. (http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/viewtopic.php?t=22375&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;sta rt=0)

[@bsolute_luck]

i think the debatable street is the river. not the turn. let lower pairs try and bluff you out on the river as you're getting raised by an Ace or a tricky opponent and folding weaker pairs, but with 2 OCs on the river and you calling the turn bet, i doubt most lower pairs are betting this river.

[Harv72b]

Daniel Negreanu said:

[ QUOTE ]
You have K-Q with the King of spades. Board is 2-3-7-9 all spades. You check and your opponent bets. Obviously, you should just call here and check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against all but the most aggressive/clueless opponents, I have to disagree with that.

I agree with what he said about the OP, though, and for the same reasons. Betting the turn allows your opponent to bluff us off of our KK on the scare card, or fold his own 2-outer. I also prefer check/calling on this river, because I absolutely want to go to showdown but I can't spend 2 BBs to do so if I get raised.

[BigBiceps]

[ QUOTE ]
Negreanu, Eric Lindgren, Jennifer Harmon, and Joe Cassidy all recommend a play here that I'm pretty sure everyone on this board would disagree with.

[/ QUOTE ]

What did they advocate? -- Check raising the flop?

[felix83]

I think Dan N.'s thinking here might be that unless your opponent has a monster he'll fold to a river donk on the 4-flush board. So the only chance you have to make any money on the river is if your opponent bluffs at it.

Or alternatively, I have no idea what I'm talking about. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet folding the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/calling the turn is where it's at.

[Pharity]

Yes you are right. He has to bluff-bet with worse hands something like 10% for check/folding to be the wrong move. And since a normal player doesnt even come close to 10% the river action should be check/fold.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Dan N.'s thinking here might be that unless your opponent has a monster he'll fold to a river donk on the 4-flush board. So the only chance you have to make any money on the river is if your opponent bluffs at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably what he's thinking, but at least in a SS game I think he's wrong often enough for a bet to +EV.

It's seemed to me, recently at least, that so many people have seen the Clarkmeister that I get called by just about any made hand when I donk the 4-flush board, so I think it's likely that you get called by a lot of hands that would check through the river. Kind of like when online poker went through that phase where you couldn't buy a free card no matter what you tried.

Then again, I will readily concede that Daniel knows a helluvalot more about poker than I do. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Pharity]

But if you would call a river bet, shouldnt you bet yourself since he won't raise a worse hand in this spot? Otherwise he will only check through the hands you beat and you will pay him off when he is ahead.

[detruncate]

I like the turn check, and my instinct was to bet/fold the river. There are several 3-betting hands that might be behind us, but I'm not sure they find a bet on the river. Is Villain more likely to bet when behind or call a bet? Also, should we worry about being bluff raised, and if so how much?

I'm waffling between bet/folding and check/calling. I don't love check/folding on the face of it, but I haven't completely discounted it either.

Hero might be raising a bit light, so it's conceivable that Villain could open up his 3-betting range a bit. But capping OOP vs a decent player would seem to suggest a reasonable amount of strength on Hero's part.

Therefore, how to we play it if we're Villain and are checked to on the turn holding a PP &lt; K? Say, TT.

I'm going to be tempted to bet this turn. But is Hero going to check/fold KK or QQ or JJ often enough? His check could easily be a move to avoid being pushed off a hand he wants to show down. I don't love firing at it, but the other options seem to be giving up or bluff raising the river.

So, let's assume we bet the turn like Villain did and get called. Do we fire again on the river? It seems to be the only chance to pick up the pot, but the only capping hands we have a chance to fold are KK and JJ (and not everyone caps JJ, especially OOP).

A better PP doesn't have odds to call the turn and fold the river, so Hero's call seems to suggest that he's planning to show down. So how much does the Q change things? QQ and AQ now beat Hero, which means he's running out of hands he's ahead of. Only a smaller PP, really, unless Villain 3-bet with something very strange.

This is assuming that Villain is thinking things through, of course. An aggressive player might just fire at the river since giving up is not acceptable when they feel there's at least some chance of taking down the pot. But how does it affect our river play if we're Hero?

On the face of it, a reasonable Villain would seem likely to opt for a free showdown most often after being called on the turn with the hands we're ahead of unless we're getting into deeper levels of thinking. But will he call a bet? I'd think not since it seems even worse than betting. In fact, it seems that a river donk on Hero's part just opens him up to a bluff raise for little good reason since he can't expect to be called profitably unless Villain calls way too much in general. It might be less clear in blind steal situation, but as is Villain is probably only calling AA, QQ, AK, AQ.

Another stupidly long post. Oh well. I think the line used by Hero is better than bet/calling. But is a check/fold better?

An aggressive Villain might bluff simply because he knows we know that it's a bad idea and might therefore be planning to fold KK or JJ. This only really matters if Villain is worried about splitting or is on a smaller PP. It all seems to come down to player reads and pot size. I'm not sure the pot is large enough to justify trying to pick off a bluff unless Villain is generally over-aggressive or loves bluffing, but I wouldn't think it's likely to be a huge mistake.

I guess I check/call vs an aggressive/bluffy opponent, check/fold otherwise, bet/fold vs a TAG who pays off way too much and is fairly straight forward.

Why are you so sure 3bet can't mean lesser pair than TT. IMO it's a standart isolating play, which I sure make with (55)66-99, assuming we are ahead of every non-pair.

Am I wrong?

By the way, where can I get, WHAT is the WA/WB concept?

[RatFink]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you would call a river bet, shouldnt you bet yourself since he won't raise a worse hand in this spot? Otherwise he will only check through the hands you beat and you will pay him off when he is ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you check-call the turn, that dynamic changes a bit.

To many players it communicates that you are going to showdown. To others it is a sign that you can be moved off the hand.

You did it to avoid being bluff raised off the best hand on the turn. A cheap showdown play.

Against those understanding the dialog as meaning you are going to showdown, the bet-fold line won't be called by a hand you beat and the check-call picks up another bet often enough, while never putting you in a position where you feel you need to fold. You may miss a value bet, but you never abandon a pot.

Against those that feel your weakness on the turn means you can be moved off the hand, a bet-fold line will get raised more often than you think. A check-call line again picks up another bluff bet occassionaly, and if checked behind you got your cheap showdown and missed a value bet. However you picked up that value bet on the turn where you likely would not have been called.

[Bob T.]

I think against a lot of opponents, there is a lot of merit in the 'pro' line. At the same time, I don't think that they can imagine some of the opponents that populate the low stakes game, especially online. Today, I know I missed several value bets, against a couple of players, because I thought that they were rational. After I saw a couple of the calldowns that they made against other players, I realized that they were going to call with a lot more hands than they would bet, and that I had better be betting in those situations, or I would be leaving a lot of chips on the table.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
They all said that check call was the obvious play on the turn against almost any opponent and at any limit, none even said it was close. As for the river, the recommended play was check and make a crying call because of the pot odds. If the guy bets the river again you should expect to lose but pay off anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind this line. I also don't mind Negraneaus KQ line.

I don't mind doing this crap if a free card is unlikely to hurt me. I like the line better against good players than bad ones.

Against loose/passive/bad players, I like bet folding; because they will pay off with worse hands and I don't mind folding to their raise.

Against reasonable aggressive players, I like "the PRos" line. Because many aggressive players (us included) will bet that turn if checked to... many times.

So yes I like their line aginst decent aggressive players. As long as a free card can't hurt you, and there is a reasonalbe chance you may be beat anyway.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Negreanu, Eric Lindgren, Jennifer Harmon, and Joe Cassidy all recommend a play here that I'm pretty sure everyone on this board would disagree with.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope it's betting the river but I'm scared that it's probably check folding the river.

[Evan]

From fullcontactpoker.com:
You have K-Q with the King of spades. Board is 2-3-7-9 all spades. You check and your opponent bets. Obviously, you should just call here and check the river.

I'm not going to try to extrapolate a whole lot from this statement because I'm pretty sure Daniel Negreanu is better at poker than me, but the line above is almost always wrong for any small or mid limit game I've ever played in. Likewise, check folding the river in the OP hand as a default line is also wrong.

[ErrantNight]

brocktoon...

no offense, but about 8 million people in that other post all said it was a way ahead/way behind situation on the turn. then those same people, after making that evaluation, advocated bet/fold.

those are the same people that pop up every now and then and disagree with the way ahead/behind line

in the KQ with K64 situation... the correct line is c/call c/call bet with the only decision being whether to fold or call. not c/r the flop. bet/folding is terrible anywhere before the river.

if you don't see how reasonable players make turn moves with worse hands you're opening yourself up for some serious punishment on that street.

[Toonces]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, where can I get, WHAT is the WA/WB concept?

[/ QUOTE ]

It stands for Way Ahead or Way Behind.