Ugh - how to get all the money in when behind.... [Archive]

View Full Version : Ugh - how to get all the money in when behind....

RevAgain

10-19-2005, 10:01 AM

And none when you're ahead...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (5.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 7h 7c (four of a kind, sevens).
Hero has Ad Ah (full house, aces full of sevens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 13.75 BB. 

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hot on the heels of my insistence on taking pocket queens to the river against an incredibly loose passive player who has 2%PFR but raised in UTG+1 with my QQ because no overcards came.

If I don't play for a week I seem forget everything I ever learnt about the game. Arse.

Edit - BTW not upset about my play with aces, I had him on a big pair and figured he had me on a big pair or AK and checking might get him to bet out on the river and then call the raise. According to that annoying Fundamental TOP I couldn't have played much worse though.

@bsolute_luck

10-19-2005, 10:04 AM

funny thing about this hand: you should have lost a lot more since i'm assuming he was going to c/r you on that turn. so be happy you goofed this time /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

RevAgain

10-19-2005, 10:10 AM

But if I bet the turn (and yes he would have checkraised) the RNG would then probably have spat out a different river card too and I would have scooped the pot! So it was doubly annoying I didn't bet that.

10-19-2005, 10:14 AM

Grunching...

Flop: (I won't read the results until after I post...) When UTG+1 wakes up with apparent rags on the board is screams "I'VE GOT A (low)SET!" and I think his 3-bet confirms it. I would have played it the same but it sets the tone for later in the hand. (I guess he could have 56 for the str8 but I doubt it)

Turn: Where is your bet??? Even if he had a set on the flop you now have top set. Are you fearing a c/r? If so, why? I got flamed on this forum the other day for doing this and it left a brand. I think he saw the A and was afraid hence the check, you slowed up, and he ended up getting a monster free card on the river because of it.

River: Based on my earlier hand read, I think he now has quads, as such I would have only called down here. I know we've got a boat but I think we're beat.

p.s. I hope I'm wrong and thanks for posting this because I think it is a great example!

numeri

10-19-2005, 10:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
River: Based on my earlier hand read, I think he now has quads, as such I would have only called down here. I know we've got a boat but I think we're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
When do you fear quads? Hopefully not after Villain's first bet. He could easily have 44 or 88 as well. I might consider it a possibility after the 3-bet, but there are still 6 combos each of 44 and 88, and only 1 possible 77. If he has it, so be it. Hero played the river perfectly.

car ramrod

10-19-2005, 10:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
River: Based on my earlier hand read, I think he now has quads, as such I would have only called down here. I know we've got a boat but I think we're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

BS. What if he had a set other than 77's? No way can you pinpoint his hand to exactly 77. I am raising this river all day every day.

RevAgain

10-19-2005, 10:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Grunching...

Flop: (I won't read the results until after I post...) When UTG+1 wakes up with apparent rags on the board is screams "I'VE GOT A (low)SET!" and I think his 3-bet confirms it. I would have played it the same but it sets the tone for later in the hand. (I guess he could have 56 for the str8 but I doubt it)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, given the title of my post it's pretty obvious I ended up losing and only one hand beat me.... that said yes he could have had the set but more often a set waits until the big bets kick in before waking up. He was very tight passive preflop and I thought it was more likely he had a vulnerable overpair, tens to kings.
[ QUOTE ]

Turn: Where is your bet??? Even if he had a set on the flop you now have top set. Are you fearing a c/r? If so, why? I got flamed on this forum the other day for doing this and it left a brand. I think he saw the A and was afraid hence the check, you slowed up, and he ended up getting a monster free card on the river because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I am not afraid of the check raise, if I bet out here he is throwing away a non set hand. I don't put him on a set yet, I still think it's more likely he has a big pair. I am thinking kings or queens. My reasoning (not saying it's right, but this is what it was) is that I can get two big bets out of him on the river if a rag falls, pretending to be scared of the ace myself. He has shown a lot of strength but because he bet the flop so hard I think the ace will scare him and if I bet he may fold now. He wasn't a loose player.
[ QUOTE ]

River: Based on my earlier hand read, I think he now has quads, as such I would have only called down here. I know we've got a boat but I think we're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're had a good inkling of the result from the title - there is no way I am ever not three betting this or calling the cap. Once it's capped I am obviously worried about quads though.

I can certainly see your reasoning for putting him on a flopped set and I'm not saying I played it perfectly, there's no reason he can't have the overpair the way he played it though.

Cheers for the feedback

10-19-2005, 10:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When do you fear quads?

[/ QUOTE ]

I fear quads because of how aggressive villain was based on his flop and river play. I think he knows hero has the boat but doesn't care because he's got the quads.

I am the first to admit I do not have a lot of experience, but, I've had at least 4-5 boats sunk by quads like this and it was the first thing that came to me when I saw villians play.

That being said, you're right...you can't fear quads otherwise you miss a lot of bets but I only would have called after the 3-bet on the river.

numeri

10-19-2005, 10:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
When do you fear quads?

[/ QUOTE ]

I fear quads because of how aggressive villain was based on his flop and river play. I think he knows hero has the boat but doesn't care because he's got the quads.

I am the first to admit I do not have a lot of experience, but, I've had at least 4-5 boats sunk by quads like this and it was the first thing that came to me when I saw villians play.

That being said, you're right...you can't fear quads otherwise you miss a lot of bets but I only would have called after the 3-bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think villain would play 44 or 88 this way, as well as 77?

Also, why would villain put us on a set? We checked the turn with our set the way Hero played the hand.

10-19-2005, 10:39 AM

Cheers back Rev! I learned a TON on this post alone. No, I do not claim to be a master hand reader...your title did guide me a little. I hope you stuck to the villian later in the session!

The main questions here are when do you slow down with a boat (if ever) considering all boat vs. higer hand are going to generate huge pots? I guess never at micro-level.

10-19-2005, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, why would villain put us on a set? We checked the turn with our set the way Hero played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are corect, this is a huge flaw in my analysis. I guess I should have said villian knows we have a good hand but..."

As to your 1st question: The way the cards fell, no I do not think he would have played 44 or 88 so aggressively on the river. His play isn't indicative of two pair.

Thanks for your critque of my posts. You've helped me see this from many dif. angles

numeri

10-19-2005, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As to your 1st question: The way the cards fell, no I do not think he would have played 44 or 88 so aggressively on the river. His play isn't indicative of two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
44 and 88 are the other sets and now full houses.

10-19-2005, 10:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
44 and 88 are the other sets and now full houses

[/ QUOTE ]

I default to you again...ok...I didn't even think about that before based on that read he would have played exactly the same not fearing Aces full because we checked the turn.

That being said...if hero had bet the turn do you think this would this have played differently?

numeri

10-19-2005, 10:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That being said...if hero had bet the turn do you think this would this have played differently?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah... Hero would have gotten 4 BB from Villain on turn while ahead, and then still probably lost 4 more on the river! He got lucky here that he didn't lose more.

10-19-2005, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
River: Based on my earlier hand read, I think he now has quads, as such I would have only called down here. I know we've got a boat but I think we're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but this is the funniest thing ive read in a long time haha, i hope you werent being serious =P

and yeah, bet the turn, cap the flop.

doesnt seem like you have too many issues with the hand, its just a nice nc to think about

deception5

10-19-2005, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
His play isn't indicative of two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

87s is another possibility to consider. This also turned into a full house on the river.

Buckmulligan

10-19-2005, 11:36 AM

I cannot ever imagine checking through on this turn after calling the flop 3 bet, and it's not just because we improved. (for the sake of the argument we'll say the turn is a blank). We have no reason to fear a check/raise from villain.

RevAgain

10-19-2005, 11:37 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: TeaMakingIdiot is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, 8 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

Just noticed in PT I had folded aces preflop. Happened earlier today, the one hand all day I time out on (was making a cup of tea).

10-19-2005, 11:41 AM

(sound of loyalguard crawling under his desk at work as he begins to mumble:) "I should lurk for a while because I have no idea of what I'm talking about...mumble mumble..."

bozlax

10-19-2005, 11:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
(was making a cup of tea).

[/ QUOTE ]

Serves you right. Drink coffee, it makes itself.

bozlax

10-19-2005, 11:48 AM

You were ahead preflop, and handled that well!

I have nothing to add regarding the remainder of the hand, I just wanted to give you something to feel good about while your tea is cooling /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

numeri

10-19-2005, 12:10 PM

10-19-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No no no! You'll learn much more this way! Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes...I'm far too addicted to this forum to only lurk and I am winning far too much money because of this forum to only lurk. Hoewever, SSH (I've read GSIH but was waiting for SSH) just arrived in the mail..so I may take a little a hiatus to become enlightened. Thanks again!

10-19-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(sound of loyalguard crawling under his desk at work as he begins to mumble:) "I should lurk for a while because I have no idea of what I'm talking about...mumble mumble..."

[/ QUOTE ]

ah oops didnt mean to diss you, just found it funny thats all. believe me i got ripped to shreds when i first started posting here (my old account). just stick at it and you will learn heaps.

and for the river, at least in my opinion... you should never slow down here, at any level, with any reads (unless he shows you his cards), for any amount of money.

you should be prepared to put every single chip you have at the table on this hand, if you regret it afterwards you really have bad br management skills.

10-19-2005, 01:15 PM

I think you really really need to bet the turn. His flop play indicates he has either a made hand or a draw that will pay you off, or like in this case a hand looking to c/r you. It think it's waaaay to much FPS to be thinking about getting an extra bet out of AK or whatever. Everything else looks good.

VoraciousReader

10-19-2005, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(sound of loyalguard crawling under his desk at work as he begins to mumble:) "I should lurk for a while because I have no idea of what I'm talking about...mumble mumble..."

[/ QUOTE ]

Aha! I knew I wasn't the only person who reads this at work. (Do you find that just when you've gotten interested in a hand discussion, you get interrupted, and by the time you get back to it, the discussion is over? I hate that.)

Don't stop posting! I have looked like a total idiot on these boards many times. Better here than at the table...

2 points:

1. I don't ever give credit to quads or royal flushes. They just don't come up enough to worry about. I am confident that the one time that I lose a pile is well outweighed by all the times they won't have them.

2. Slowing down with a boat...if the board is double-paired and you match the underpair and your (non-insane) opponent is also going nuts, you may want to slow down. Otherwise, it's generally not a good idea.

RevAgain

10-19-2005, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you really really need to bet the turn. His flop play indicates he has either a made hand or a draw that will pay you off, or like in this case a hand looking to c/r you. It think it's waaaay to much FPS to be thinking about getting an extra bet out of AK or whatever. Everything else looks good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I had my reasons for checking, yes it was FPS, not for AK but for TT-KK. I didn't consider the number of draws on the table, and the very good chance of getting called down by JJ-KK, at least, which made a bet the right move I think.

No-one has pointed out that my original post was basically a bad beat post btw; and you guys turned it into a strategy discussion!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHH

David04

10-19-2005, 07:14 PM

Everybody who says "Hero got lucky, he should have lost more here" are just results oriented.

Against a lower set here, we have around 98% equity. Don't be stupid, if that river was a blank, or if Villain had flipped 88, everyone would be saying "OMG do you hate money?!?! Bet the turn!!"

So, bet the turn.

10-19-2005, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(was making a cup of tea).

[/ QUOTE ]

Serves you right. Drink coffee, it makes itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

And tea doesn't? Hot water, tea bag. What am I missing?

RevAgain

10-19-2005, 08:13 PM

Sugar and a drop of milk.

RandBriscoe

10-19-2005, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hot on the heels of my insistence on taking pocket queens to the river against an incredibly loose passive player who has 2%PFR but raised in UTG+1 with my QQ because no overcards came.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really so bad?

VoraciousReader

10-19-2005, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sugar and a drop of milk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, the thinly disguised bad beat post is one thing. I can let that slide.

But CONTAMINATING a PERFECTLY GOOD CUP OF TEA with MILK !

Oh, the humanity!!

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

DoomSlice

10-19-2005, 11:03 PM

I believe the entire state of the deck is determined before it is dealt, not during the hand.

10-20-2005, 01:57 AM

I believe in karma - what you give is what you get returned.

I believe you cant appreciate real life til you've been burned.

Edit: I also believe the grass is no more greener on the other side.

AND, using sklanskys theory of differentiation,
I believe you dont know what youve got until you say goodbye