Why I don't play NL. hand history included

[Buccaneer]

I play limit and today decided to take a walk on the Wild Side and play some NL. Most of these guys were pushing with the slighest strength and I was sitting back folding and trying to get premium hands. I think I got lazy. This guy didn't push at once and I was so used to pushers that I discounted his all in as a bluff for the pot. I think I got rolled by a better player. Suggestions on minimizing losses like this in the future?

MP2 had AK, where is his agression. He had trip aces on the turn and still did not bet them. What's up with that? I thought on the river he had the case T and it was going to be a split pot. Lay it down? But where?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($18.25)
CO ($25)
Button ($4.80)
Hero ($16.20)
BB ($24.65)
UTG ($22.11)
UTG+1 ($21.90)
UTG+2 ($5.58)
MP1 ($25.05)
MP2 ($15.43)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.25. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.25</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, CO folds.

Turn: ($2) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.25</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25.

River: ($2.75) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.75</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, Hero calls $12.43.

Final Pot: $18.93

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Dont look here --- the joke is in my hand! /images/graemlins/smile.gif </font>

[DiabloVt7]

You got very aggressive in a very small pot. Personally how you played it when 3 betting the river you would have to fold to the all in by the villain. Me personally with the pot being small would of just called villains raise on the river. There's not many hands he'll be doing this with that doesn't contain an ace especially with you locking 3 of the 10s up.

[PinkSteel]

You should have been out of this hand very early.

Preflop -- it's 5-way and limped, so I would think JTs is a good hand to complete with. I would never call a raise with that hand from SB, though; you're OOP with a drawing hand and you'll get killed.

On the flop, I check/fold. You missed your draws almost completely, middle pair won't survive 5-way, and leading gives you zero fold equity against 4 opponents. No-limit betting will increase pot size exponentially from here to the river (if your opponents are any good) and you won't be able to afford the price to draw further.

The $0.25 bet is terrible; think in terms of pot-sized bets. Much better players than I will recommend 2/3-to-full pot on the flop, scaling down to 1/2 pot on the river, as standard bet sizes. If I had this hand heads-up I would consider leading with a pot-sized bet on the flop, in hopes of taking it down right there, but that's all the money I put in without improvement.

Whoever put you all in and showed you an A at showdown was probably worried about another Ace with a higher kicker until the river hit; that's why the betting was subdued until then. In a limit game, you can often call a river bet on the basis of good pot odds -- but here, since the final bet put you all-in, an Ace only has to show less than 2/3 of the time (too lazy to do the exact math) to make this a bad call.

As someone who plays a lot of limit and NL, I can tell you that you have to be even more patient and careful in NL. You never call in NL hoping to split the pot. In limit, it's easy to call one more bet to hope to split.

Also, in a big multiway pot like this, there's just no sense in betting out from the blind with second pair. You really have close to zero here. The most important thing in NL is not winning every pot that you can win. I think the most important thing is to keep yourself out of hugely bad situations like this. It just costs you too much when you're behind and you win too little when you're ahead. In limit, folding the best hand is a disaster because you're often folding rather than just putting one more bet into a pot that might already have 10-14 bets in it. Thus, you're getting huge odds to call, even if you think you're probably behind. You just can't do this in NL because the odds structure is completely different.

As for this particular hand, c/f the flop. If it's checked around, c/f the turn. If it's checked around, make a PSB on the river and fold to any real raise. Anyone who raises the river has at least a 10, which means you're at best spliting. If they miniraise, you can probably call, but you have to fold to an all-in. You can't risk your whole stack praying that you're going to split the few dollars that were in the pot before the river. The risk/reward ration in NL is just too different from limit. In limit you would always call a river raise, but in NL you just can't call that much hoping to split.

I would also note that position is important in limit, more so than most realize IMO. But in NL, position is everything. That's why I think a c/f is best here. You just don't want to get stuck in this hand with a marginal holding and in the worst possible position. It's going to make this hand almost impossible to play profitably over the long run.

[Macedon]

[ QUOTE ]
I play limit and today decided to take a walk on the Wild Side and play some NL. Most of these guys were pushing with the slighest strength and I was sitting back folding and trying to get premium hands. I think I got lazy. This guy didn't push at once and I was so used to pushers that I discounted his all in as a bluff for the pot. I think I got rolled by a better player. Suggestions on minimizing losses like this in the future?

MP2 had AK, where is his agression. He had trip aces on the turn and still did not bet them. What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]
He is an idiot. People sometimes, more frequently than not, play like idiots at this level. Be conscious of it.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought on the river he had the case T and it was going to be a split pot. Lay it down? But where?

[/ QUOTE ] See below

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($18.25)
CO ($25)
Button ($4.80)
Hero ($16.20)
BB ($24.65)
UTG ($22.11)
UTG+1 ($21.90)
UTG+2 ($5.58)
MP1 ($25.05)
MP2 ($15.43)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.25. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.25</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, CO folds.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was your first mistake. You bet .25 cents into a $1.25 pot. You are neither chasing out draws nor properly representing a big hand. Given the texture of the board, your better play is to check and hope no one bets. If someone bets small like you did, call and hope to peel off another ten or jack. On the other hand, if you want to represent an ace, bet pot size or a bit under. If anyone calls, fold on 4th street if anyone shows strength and you haven't improved.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: ($2) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.25</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25.

[/ QUOTE ] same mistake as above, but much worse. You see why, right?
[ QUOTE ]


River: ($2.75) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.75</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, Hero calls $12.43.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I understand how this hand was converted here. You raised to $2.25 and then he pushed? Is that right? Anyways, you should fold here. He has been calling you throughout the hand, he obviously has a better hand than your tens full of aces. The better play would have been to check and hope he bets small so that you can call.

In No Limit you really need to consider what your opponent might be holding based NOT ONLY on his player rep (loose, tight, etc), but also on how he responds to bets, raises, check-raises, etc. Even with your weak bets, he was still giving you enough information for you to realize that your JT was no good.

I also wanted to add one more important difference between NL and limit. In NL it takes A LOT more to call a raise than it does in limit. Because in NL there is a huge fear factor. A raise in NL normally means a big hand because that raiser is now opening himself up to the possiblity of being reraised for all his money. So most people aren't going to raise unless they really think they have it. Of course, in SSNL there are a bunch of maniacs, but you have to think about this principle as you're learning NL. It's not just about calling raises, but when you make a raise yourself. You have to realize than when you bet this river or decide to raise that you could be put in a tough spot if he puts you to the test. This is different from limit, of course, because in limit the worst than can happen is to have to call one more bet. Keep this key difference in mind. A bet or raise means a lot more in NL than in limit--for you and your opponents.

In your particular hand, betting out the flop in limit wouldn't be so bad (although I still wouldn't recommend it). But in NL, it's just terrible. That's why none of your opponents raised you, because they were afraid you must have a huge hand to be betting into a huge field from the blind with that board. I don't blame them. This is a critical difference between limit and NL.

[Macedon]

Here's one more additional comment:

To over-generalize, No-Limit is a game of MISTAKE AVOIDANCE (whether that mistake is calling when you should fold, checking when you should bet, folding when you should call, etc) whereas Limit is a game of math (pot odds, hand odds).

You need to be constantly vigil of avoiding mistakes. If you play your hand correctly (much like the Theory of Poker would recommend) you can make crazy money. On the other hand, if you make one simple mistake...EVERYTHING can be lost quicker than you can even imagine being possible.

In short, No-Limit can be either absolutely wonderful or absolutely horrible. Keep that in mind when you bet .25 cents into two players when the pot is over $1 to begin with.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's one more additional comment:

To over-generalize, No-Limit is a game of MISTAKE AVOIDANCE (whether that mistake is calling when you should fold, checking when you should bet, folding when you should call, etc) whereas Limit is a game of math (pot odds, hand odds).

You need to be constantly vigil of avoiding mistakes. If you play your hand correctly (much like the Theory of Poker would recommend) you can make crazy money. On the other hand, if you make one simple mistake...EVERYTHING can be lost quicker than you can even imagine being possible.

In short, No-Limit can be either absolutely wonderful or absolutely horrible. Keep that in mind when you bet .25 cents into two players when the pot is over $1 to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. Don't make any big mistakes is the key. You're going to win your share of monster pots, but the key is to not lose your share of monster pots. Leave that for the fish; they're the ones that make NL so profitable.

Along this line, I think an important concept that I use, but don't hear discussed very often, is the idea of laying down the best hand even when you think your hand is best. For example, say you're at a table of very loose players. It's a big multiway pot similar to the OP. You raised from the button with A-Ko and still get 4 callers for 5 total. The flop comes up Ah 10S 9h. Say the SB bets out the pot and everyone calls. Well, you're sitting there on the button and probably thinking you have the best hand (and your probably do). I would argue that it's best to just fold here. With all those draws and with all those callers, it's going to be very difficult for your hand to hold up and you could easily already be behind a set or two pair. But even if you do have the best hand you're probably at best 50% to win the hand. I think in NL, you're better off foldingthis. In limit, it would probably be a mistake because even if you're only 40% to win a hand, there's enough dead money in the pot to call down and still make it plenty +EV. In NL, things have a way of escalating real fast and before you know it your stack is gone (just as in your posted hand). So as a rule, I think you have to protect your stack at all costs. Even if you think you're likely ahead in NL, it's often better to just fold well the pot is small rather than get stuck playing for a huge pot in a very marginal situation.

[GrunchCan]

Hey, Bucaneer -

I agree in principal with everything said in this thread regarding the differences between limit &amp; no-limit. But there has been much that was not said. There are many differences. In fact, they are such different games, they might as well not have the same name. A bit outdated, but I had some thoughts here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ssplnlpoker&amp;Number=2969165 ).

I have to be honest with you and tell you that you misplayed this hand terribly. I cannot think of a single case where your minimum bet on the flop or the turn would be correct. If your'e going to bet, it needs to be full pot. Still, betting may or may not be correct. One thing to be keenly aware of in no-limit is how dangerous 1-pair hands are. Especially if it's not top pair, and *especially* if there is an Ace on board, one-pair hands are a through ticket -- for the other guy. Be very very careful.

And just to be clear, the 0.25 bets were not being careful. They were laying good implied odds for your opponents' any two cards. It's better to define the opponent's hand with a big bet that he has to *think* about calling, then to just flip one chip out there and "see what he does". You never want to see what he does. You want to tell him what to do, and make it a mistake when he complies or declines. Take command.

Stick around. No-limit is a fascinating game. It's a lot of fun, and there's a lot to learn. And a lot of chips to be won!

[fuzzbox]

If you are 50% to win, and get 5:1 on your money, then you will get rich VERY quickly. To fold, when you believe that you have the best hand is not a wise decision. Shoveling money into the pot with great gusto is a much wiser decision.

[jhall23]

I didn't scan through everyone's posts but I am sure they have covered how bad this hand is.

I'm just going to add one thing. In no-limit games there is a little box (or scrollbar) which you can type (or drag) in any amount from the BB to the size of your stack before you bet/raise. You should learn to use these /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sourbeaver]

The joke is that you reraised the river, while thinking it would be a split pot, which is simply asking to get your whole stack picked off.

edit: (the whole hand needs help, I was just stating the should-be obvious).

[Buccaneer]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Turn: ($2) A (3 players)
Hero bets $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25.

same mistake as above, but much worse. You see why, right?

Quote:


River: ($2.75) T (3 players)
Hero bets $0.75, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises to $1.5, Hero raises to $2.25, Hero calls $12.43.



[/ QUOTE ]

After reading all the other post I think that I see why. My little sissy bet put no pressure on my opponent. I was basicaly begging him to come along with me to the river and out draw me, which he did.

[elus2]

when i want to walk on the wild side i play 5/10 limit 6max.

[Buccaneer]

[ QUOTE ]
when i want to walk on the wild side i play 5/10 limit 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

For me that would not be a walk, it would be a marathon!

[swolfe]

check/fold flop

[aces_dad]

Not sure I understand the drawn out part, when was villian behind in this hand?

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]

After reading all the other post I think that I see why. My little sissy bet put no pressure on my opponent. I was basicaly begging him to come along with me to the river and out draw me, which he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

how the hell did he outdraw you

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

After reading all the other post I think that I see why. My little sissy bet put no pressure on my opponent. I was basicaly begging him to come along with me to the river and out draw me, which he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

how the hell did he outdraw you

[/ QUOTE ]

This gets better and better. It's a good beat post.

[Buccaneer]

Sorry he did not out draw me. He was ahead the whole hand and I was not smart enough to figure it out. Wrong word.

Now that we have that straight, what I was getting from the post here was to make a good size bet to play NL, and to not allow others to draw out on you.

[aces_dad]

There was some good discussion regarding L vs NL.

For this specific hand, it's not the flop bet size which doomed you. You shouldn't have called the allin on the river and on the flop c/f, c/c the flop depending upon the action. OOP with middle pair is not a strong holding here.