AK flop raise

[Chaos_ult]

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, BB folds, MP calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

Is this standard against a loose calling station?

Let me hear your thoughts.

[2+2 wannabe]

deleted cause I apparently can't read 6-max

[jaxUp]

Bet the turn and check behind on the river. It costs the same, and we fold a pp (maybe a 9) some of the time.

[Chaos_ult]

Doubt I make him fold anything. He's been calling down with king high, etc.

[2+2 wannabe]

yeah betting this turn against a calling station is -EV

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]


you have to fold the river UI obviously

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a bad idea against this player.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


you have to fold the river UI obviously

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a bad idea against this player.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're absolutely right

I thought this was 10-handed

you have to call this river fo sho

edit: this depends on how passive this player is - if quite passive I don't call a river bet, because they're definitely not betting the flop with a hand that we beat

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn and check behind on the river. It costs the same, and we fold a pp (maybe a 9) some of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if the trade off of quoting a good post is worth the time spent looking at that avatar. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Don't raise the flop and check the turn. Either call the flop or bet the turn.

[Weatherhead03]

This is my standard line. Costs the same and you can fold a lot of hands with the turn bet.

[Chaos_ult]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't raise the flop and check the turn. Either call the flop or bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can this be better against a calling station?

He's been calling down with king high, bottom pair

The flop raise knocks out drawing hands, allows me to isolate a terrible player.

I'm just confused..

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't raise the flop and check the turn. Either call the flop or bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can this be better against a calling station?

He's been calling down with king high, bottom pair

The flop raise knocks out drawing hands, allows me to isolate a terrible player.

I'm just confused..

[/ QUOTE ]

You have two overcards but you have no backdoor draws and you have a weak opponent betting into you when you showed strength preflop. You also have a player to act behind you who cold-called preflop and you haven't given us a read on him.
Your hand is a weak draw, (and you could be reverse dominated.) Call and see what the turn brings.

[Chaos_ult]

I have a backdoor straight draw on the flop.

I've seen him make this exact same play with bottom pair.

Edit: Granted, this is NOT my normal line. I felt like I had a good read on my opponent here.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a backdoor straight draw on the flop.

I've seen him make this exact same play with bottom pair.

Edit: Granted, this is NOT my normal line. I felt like I had a good read on my opponent here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a marginal hand, you are behind to bottom pair, you have players to act behind you, a call is much better than a raise. Chase him down if you want but punish him on the bigger streets not now when you're most probably behind.

[Chaos_ult]

[ QUOTE ]
you have players to act behind you

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the reasons for the flop raise. When the pot starts getting big, I want to maximize my chance of winning it. What I wanted to accomplish on the flop was to knock out the weak drawing hands (single overcards, etc.), and likely get a free card on the turn. If I thought I could get villain to fold anything, i'd probably play it differently. This is a large pot, I really want to see the river against this player.

[Yerma]

Hi Chaos,

Against a loose calling station, the standard line is to raise the flop, bet the turn, and check behind on the river unimproved. Unfortunately, you're representing either AK or AA in his eyes. So, if he just calls you down, he is playing nearly optimally. You have to control the frequency with which you take this line so that if a calling station intends to keep you honest after flopping a pair, he isn't going to make very much off of you.

Now, a flop bet from a calling station usually, but not always, means that he either has a pair (any pair), or has flopped the straight draw. You're not really ahead of any of those. Even the straight draw is probably nearly 50-50 with you. Of course you should isolate him, but to control your semi-bluffing frequency, I suggest continuing the betting only if an A, K, Q, or J hit on the turn. If a Q hits and you bet, you could easily have had AQ or KQ. If a J hits, you could have had a number of hands with a J. Basically, if one of these cards comes, you can represent something tangible that gives the calling station a serious problem.

If you're worried that you should *never* bet the turn unimproved because he'll just call you, just remember that you've said that he'll call down with K-high. He could easily have KQ or even AT, made a stab at it, and is still willing to call you. You could still be ahead.

This idea also makes you less vulnerable to turn check-raises that lift you from legitimate one-pair draws.

But when you do check behind on the turn, you have to quite often call unimproved on the river.

[Chaos_ult]

[ QUOTE ]
you have to quite often call unimproved on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is fine by me against this particular opponent

For all we know, he could check it again on the river (again, not too unlikely, this guy is TERRIBLE), so its really just speculation

PS: As always, I take everything you guys say into serious consideration, I know my game needs improvement. Thank you all for your thoughts.

[adsman]

... and if the players to act behind you cold call again or even worse, 3-bet? You'd be in a pretty pickle then. I know it didn't happen on this hand but that is results orientated thinking.
FWIW, I used to think the same way here. SKlansky and co. say you must do everything you can to win big pots, so therefore I have to raise. I know you have the backdoor str8 draw, (a very long shot), but this example is almost the same as the hand example on page 273 of SSH. Check it out.

[Chaos_ult]

Ugh, I hate to be argumentative, but how would being 3-bet here be worse? At least I know i'm behind.

What it all boils down to is I felt that my read on this player was fairly good, and the other players at the table were fairly tight for this game (probably should have mentioned that originally). Again, this is NOT my normal line. I KNEW it was speculative, but I thought, based on my reads, this line was my best chance at winning the pot.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, I hate to be argumentative, but how would being 3-bet here be worse? At least I know i'm behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem in being argumentative, it's how you learn. That said, worse than what? You've lost me here. And you want to pay 3sb to find out that you're behind? Eek.

[ QUOTE ]
What it all boils down to is I felt that my read on this player was fairly good, and the other players at the table were fairly tight for this game (probably should have mentioned that originally). Again, this is NOT my normal line. I KNEW it was speculative, but I thought, based on my reads, this line was my best chance at winning the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the other players were fairly tight and one cold-called your preflop raise and he is yet to act behind you, then there is no way that I'm raising this.

[Chaos_ult]

[ QUOTE ]
If the other players were fairly tight and one cold-called your preflop raise and he is yet to act behind you, then there is no way that I'm raising this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point.

Thanks for the input