200nl hands...sigh

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 ($193)
UTG+2 ($195)
MP1 ($417.55)
MP2 ($343.90)
MP3 ($183.55)
CO ($94.80)
Button ($172.25)
SB ($307.20)
BB ($152.45)
Hero ($203.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls $6, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $4.

Flop: ($19) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($19) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($19) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $16</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $8.

Final Pot: $51

what do u do with AQo utg?
also I figurd flop to be way ahead/way behind...so i got passive...what u think?

after 100 hands minraiser had a pf aggro of 12
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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($153.55)
CO ($270.85)
Button ($102.45)
SB ($367.18)
BB ($75.47)
Hero ($211.55)
UTG+1 ($191)
MP1 ($123.10)
MP2 ($179.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $7</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls $7, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($17) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, CO calls $10.

Turn: ($37) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $20</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $57

villian is 42% PVIP but doesnt see many showdowns and wins most of the time he goes there.

[4_2_it]

1st hand - Why are you checking the flop? Pot it and slow down if you get raised. Most of the time you are way ahead. Only AJ should scare you are this point.

I would pot the turn again if I get no resistance. The way you played it, villain could have A with a bad kicker or KQ or a J. You have no idea because you did not bet to get villain to define his hand.

2nd hand --Bet the turn and fold to a raise. Your check showed weakness and defined your hand as two missed overcards. I would bet with air here to steal. The only thing you have to be worried about is a set or 99. Villain could also have two pair (78) so I would fold to any show of strength. If your play is this passive and you always fold to any resistance you encourage people to steal from you and when you do come on strong anyone who is paying attention will not pay you off.

[Jocke_F]

hand one I like the flop check, but bet turn and fold to a raise, if called bet river and fold to a raise, this line I think is the most likely to get two calls out of a worse ace. I like the fold on hand 2, you probably have the best hand from time to time but you are out of position, the board is ugly and you can't really sell him the idea that you got a 9

[amoeba]

betting purely to get info is a bad bad idea.

betting the flop and betting the turn on this board in 200nl is a bad bad idea.

think about how much the hero loses the times he is behind by "trying to find out where he is" compared to how much hero lost here. Oftentimes info comes at too expensive a price that its cheaper to showdown.

I agree with check the flop, bet the turn, fold to any resistance. J will announce itself on the turn, and you might get some value from a worse A but a turn check doesn't bother me too much as AT-A2 are drawing to a 1 outer split pot. and if you bet the turn and get called, you likely won't bet river again so waiting until the river to bet certainly isn't bad.

in fact I think hero played this hand pretty damn well.

Hand 1:

Do you normally raise AQo UTG ???

[4_2_it]

You ares HU with AQ and a flop of AJJ and you think you might be behind here? If you advocate checking the flop to feign weakness, I can see that as a nice change of pace play. I just hate giving a free card when I am probably only a little ahead.

I do not advocate that you place bets to find out where you are, but if you never bet that board until the river villain's range could be anything from the nuts to bottom pair. You are probably wrong to fold to a river raise because of villain's range.

Amoeba- I think your posts are usually spot on and do not want to hijack this thread, but I would like to continue this line of discussion via this thread if you feel it is appropriate, a new thread or via PM. thks. 4_2

[amoeba]

I'm operating under the impression that 200nl fullring is a rock garden and that I won't find AT-A2 here too often and that range is pretty much drawing dead against us.

I'm not too worried about free card as the only draws are gutshots.

"I do not advocate that you place bets to find out where you are, but if you never bet that board until the river villain's range could be anything from the nuts to bottom pair. You are probably wrong to fold to a river raise because of villain's range."

we shouldn't be afraid of calling river raises if they are small. river raises are typically intimidating because they are typically large due to the pot inflation of previous streets.

by checking down previous streets, we have basically delayed the betting until later and also feigned a bit of weakness to allow a worse hand to call.

at some point, the mantra of if I am preflop raiser and I flop TP good kicker, I have to to bet every street until villain lets me know I am beaten, becomes much less effective.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
at some point, the mantra of if I am preflop raiser and I flop TP good kicker, I have to to bet every street until villain lets me know I am beaten, becomes much less effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the explanation. I see where you're coming from. Am I correct to say that you prefer to control this hand and play for a small pot? That makes sense to me.

I guess I need to evaluate my post-flop aggression rules. I tend to try to push every perceived edge and maybe this indicates I need to lighten up occasionally in the 200's.

Thanks

[unlucky513]

hand 1 - bet the flop, i put in a bet of about $15 here. if called, i slow down. with no reads, i probably c/c reasonable bets the rest of the way down.

hand 2 - looks ok.

[amoeba]

if it was my standard 200 6 max game, I would be betting for value but I would think a UTG raise in a fullring game gets some respect thus I'm operating under that assumption and also because there aren't too many possible freecards I have to worry about.

[rikz]

Hand 1 - Full ring from UTG I fold AQo preflop, and limp AQs planning to fold to a raise from LP. Even if LP is stealing, I don't like playing AQ oop post flop against a preflop raiser. I realize that this is pretty tight, but I wouldn't have to worry about this flop because I would have lost my $1 SB and moved on.

Hand 2 - Raise to $8 preflop, just to be a nit, since that would be 4xBB. I think check/folding the turn is fine if villain is straight forward in his post flop play, or you don't have a read. You're ahead of JJ, TT, and most flush draws (like Qs Js), but that's about it. If you're concerned about getting run over by being too weak tight, then call the turn bet of $20 and lead the river for $30, folding to any raise. JJ or TT will call that river if it's a low blank. I really suspect that by the turn you're behind most villains calling your continuation bet on that flop more often than you are ahead by this turn (any 9x or 4x has a straight, any suited connector now has 2-pair, any mid pocket pair now has a set), so giving up seems OK unless you make a habit of giving up easily and guys start taking advantage of you with very little other than position.

[amoeba]

bet more on the flop on hand 2.

Lately over the past 2 weeks I've been playing everyday and have become very profitable playing just under these stakes. Although I've been doing alot of 6 handed NL, I think the worst thing you can do in a hand is throw it away due to lack of knowledge and aggression. You basically are obligated to throw in a 70%-90% bet of the pot size I think. If you get raised here, you can obviously get rid of it alot sooner, and if he just calls the flop, unless he's slow playing it for value, bet the turn as well, this time if he calls again, I would be weary of you play on 5th street. I would then suggest checking the river, if he makes a value bet, I think you just have to call it, and give him credit if he outflopped you.