Q9s, big pot, how would you play this flop?

[AaronS]

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

I've played about 2 loops at the table, opponents all seem loose

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

too loose a flop call with 1 limper, the raiser, and 3 cold-callers?

Flop: (16.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Obviously have to at least call here, getting about 19:1 with a gutter and backdoor flush draw... Raise to get a free card/pick up some outs? (admittedly queens might not be outs here) Just call?

Turn: (12.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Anyone bet here with the double gutter?

River: (12.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

any other comments?

Final Pot: 12.25 BB.

[bobhalford]

Maybe I'm nute but I would never cold call a preflop raise with a Q in my hand, much less Q9s. I fold KQs here too.

[Harv72b]

Folding any suited connector (including 2-gappers) here would be a mistake. Hero has position on the PFR and a ton of players involved in the pot (and you can pretty much guarantee that BB will come along); the immediate odds are too great to pass up, let alone the implied ones.

I like flat calling the flop. If you hit your gutter you'll be holding the nuts, and with the pot this big you're not chasing anyone who flopped a pair (i.e., QJ) out with a raise. So I don't think you buy any additional outs (even T7 would still be correct to call 2), and I'm frankly shocked that you got even 1 free card out of the raise, let alone 2.

[matt hooley]

fold PF, every time.
on the flop I just call. your draw is to a very strong hand that can win many times though you are multi-way. raising will just knock out players that may find a second best hand to call the turn or river with in such a big pot. I don't really see a flop raise for value

[@bsolute_luck]

preflop: fine
flop: just call. your draw isn't that strong and you risk getting 3-bet by a better hand that you're calling to at least the turn anyways making this an expensive flop for such a weak hand.

turn: no don't bet. you're not getting a J, TT-99 to fold (at least i don't think you would).

[olavfo]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold KQs here too.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a mistake. KQs plays very well multiway.

[Joe Tall]

Fold preflop. You are going to be paying too much to see the flop with what is likely a very dominated hand in addition to the fact that there are many to act behind.

Your raise on the flop is fine with reads. You can clean up your outs from the front flop checkers by raising versus players unlikely to 3-bet that check the turn, all for a raise.

I'd fold preflop. 78s plays very well in a multiway raised pot. Q9s doesn't. Since you chose that course, I would call the flop, but I think you have to fold pf.

I usually don't like to play a hand like Q9s behind a raise. If I had played the hand, I would have flat called the flop and check/called the turn.

[BigBiceps]

1. fold preflop
2. do not raise the flop with only 4 outs with 8 people in the pot

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Your raise on the flop is fine with reads. You can clean up your outs from the front flop checkers by raising versus players unlikely to 3-bet that check the turn, all for a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hand that is counterfeiting any of Hero's outs is going to fold for 2 on the flop, getting better than 10:1 (assuming no coldcallers before he acts)? Let alone a loose player? I'll concede the free card play since it worked this time, but the only way I can possibly see a raise folding an opponent who would've beat Hero would be AXs that whiffed the flop but would catch a runner runner flush to beat Hero's (eventual) straight. Assuming he folds for 2 on the flop anyway.

[bobhalford]

[ QUOTE ]
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I fold KQs here too.


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That's a mistake. KQs plays very well multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess KQs could be played here. I just don't like it cause you are dominated by AQ, AK, KK, AA. I fold it (perhaps incorrectly) because I know that if I flop a K or Q it could get expensive, and I'm really only calling to make a flush or straight, and KQs doesn't have as many straight possibilities as say JT. Plus you can get hammered by a higher flush. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are reverse implied odds in effect. But Q9s has a lot worse reverse implied odds, though the fact that the pot is so big might negate those and it might be a decent call. Unfortunately I don't find too many of these games where there is a raise pf and several cold callers. I ran into this problem in Atlantic City last week where I felt I was playing too tight and folding a lot of hands preflop to raises that I thought I might be able to call with because of the implied odds. I think maybe 98s or somesuch hand might be even better than Q9 because the other cold callers are likely to have face cards.

Preflop: I would fold. QTs might be arguable and QJs+ is pretty much a clear call.
Flop: I don't like raising with about a 5.5 out draw (4 for gutshot and 1.5ish for bd flush, very rarely are your queens good here, you are usually dominated), but you got a free card so it was okay in this case.
Turn: Definitely bet out when it gets checked to you. Everyone else seems weak, and even if they call, you have at least 8 outs.
River: In a pot this big, I would take a shot, but there is a much better chance of success if you bet the turn.

I fold pf. Two gappers aren't too hot for the straights, your flush could get dominated, and your high card/top pair value is close to zero in a pot that large.

[habsfanca11]

Can we get a consensus here? Two respected posters have come out on opposite ends. JT says fold pre-flop and Harv says call. What's a lurker to do?

[habsfanca11]

Joe, can you maybe expand on why this is a fold preflop? Or can you answer Harv's comments regarding preflop?

[BigBrother]

I think in the particular game you describe your cold-call pf can be marginally profitable. I would make it at certain Party 2/4 tables.

I think it quickly becomes unprofitable in stronger games, or if there's a decent chance UTG will LRR.

In stronger games your Q9 straight will sometimes be losing to KQ or AQ, yuor flush could be second best, and your top pair value with this many players will be almost nil.

Before you decide to cold call a marginal hand like this I think you want to also have a read on how aggressively the table is treating large pots post flop. You are likely to need to get to the river to make your hand and it could get very expensive.

I'm not a fan of the flop raise. Calling gives you odds to see the river for 1 Bet each street and is more likely to keep other opponents padding the pot with their SB's. The small chance of buying a free card is offset by the customers lost and the small chance you are betting into a set of 8's or 5's.

I doubt you are folding hands with 2 overcards in a pot this big, and QT isn't folding the other half of your gutshot draw, so I don't think you buy any outs with the raise. (Assuming KQ or AQ would stay for the flop, you only gain from KT or AT when both a Q AND an overcard come runner-runner).

So I call the flop, check/call the turn, and fold river UI.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we get a consensus here? Two respected posters have come out on opposite ends. JT says fold pre-flop and Harv says call. What's a lurker to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

When in doubt, go with Joe Tall. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[habsfanca11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can we get a consensus here? Two respected posters have come out on opposite ends. JT says fold pre-flop and Harv says call. What's a lurker to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

When in doubt, go with Joe Tall. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this then - at 2/4 in a loosey goosey game this is OK, but table conditions must be just right. As you move up you'll want to fold this though. Yes? And thanks to previous poster for suggesting.

[TemetNosce]

Preflop: I like the call with Q9s knowing that you will have at least 5 opponents. If you felt that chances were good that a couple more of your loose opponents were going to come along, that makes playing Q9s here even better.

Flop: I like the raise, especially if you think your loose tablemates are also passive and you think it's possible that you can get a free card on the turn and also gaining the button. Also, while it's unlikely that your Queen is an out, a raise here could potentially clean up your Queen outs.

Turn: Not betting the turn is correct. Your double gutshot is worth 8 outs, so you are 38:8 to hit on the river. A bet here isn't for value and you have no chance to fold everyone out. You got your free card, so take it.

I like the way you played this hand.