$11 JJ laydown... good bad?

[stupidsucker]

***** Hand History for Game 2857138496 *****
15/30 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16467417) - Tue Oct 18 20:17:15 EDT 2005
Table Table 35259 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: MIC61892 (895)
Seat 2: walletDump (1235)
Seat 3: P0t_Commit3d (800)
Seat 4: DENTMASTERB (455)
Seat 5: K8394772 (775)
Seat 6: smoke1977 (740)
Seat 7: Bigduck85 (795)
Seat 8: poxyman (705)
Seat 9: lone_dopey (800)
Seat 10: bigj0e03z (800)
Bigduck85 posts small blind (10)
poxyman posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to P0t_Commit3d [ Jd, Jh ]
lone_dopey folds.
bigj0e03z folds.
MIC61892 folds.
walletDump calls (15)
P0t_Commit3d calls (15)
DENTMASTERB folds.
K8394772 folds.
smoke1977 calls (15)
Bigduck85 calls (5)
poxyman checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kh, 9h, Jc ]
Bigduck85 checks.
poxyman bets (50)
walletDump folds.
P0t_Commit3d raises (275) to 275
smoke1977 calls (275)
Bigduck85 folds.
poxyman calls (225)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5h ]
poxyman checks.
P0t_Commit3d bets (15)
smoke1977 raises (125) to 125
poxyman calls (125)

[Nick M]

personally i don't like the raise. I would just let this one go, it's to early to get busted...or lose more than a third of your stack

EDIT: wow i sooooo read this question wrong, i will leave this retarded reply here as an example for people who read too fast

[kyro]

You're closing the action and are getting 80 bajillion:1 in hopes of filling up. I don't get it.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
personally i don't like the raise. I would just let this one go, it's to early to get busted...or lose more than a third of your stack

[/ QUOTE ]

What don't you like about the raise? Too much? Not enough? He's got the third nuts on the flop, surely you can't think you're behind here based on a t50 bet!

[Nick M]

Holy Sh1t!!! I completely read that wrong hahahaa I thought it came Kxx hahaha ok i'm a jackass.

OK if they are going to call that big raise then i say make it. I can't believe you got 2 callers though. I like the play. if you ran into Q10 it sucks, but you got outs i guess.

Thanks Kyro

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Holy Sh1t!!! I completely read that wrong hahahaa I thought it came Kxx hahaha ok i'm a jackass.

OK if they are going to call that big raise then i say make it. I can't believe you got 2 callers though. I like the play. if you ran into Q10 it sucks, but you got outs i guess.

Thanks Kyro

[/ QUOTE ]

<3

[BDarch]

i think its a good laydown, I would have raised preflop though

[NegativeEV]

$11-$33 with your position and the one limper: Raise to 75-100 preflop, push any undercard flop, play smart with an A or K flop. You'll get paid off by worse hands a ton.

I think you're looking in the wrong spots for mistakes. Start with blocking and tackling in these low level sngs.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
i think its a good laydown, I would have raised preflop though

[/ QUOTE ]

!!!!

OMG YOU ARE GETTING 10:1 AND HAVE LIKELY 10 OUTS!!!!!! NOT TO MENTION THE ODDS YOU'LL END UP STACKING THE GUY WHO HIT HIS FLUSH.

Seriously, I would push this before I would fold.

[pocket3s]

Look man, I don't want to come down too hard but this entire hand, with the exception of maybe the flop, was horribly played. You have to raise with J's preflop EVERY time, there are 9 cards in the deck that make them worthless. The flop was a good raise, but the turn was just ridiculous. I know the heart was a scare card but you have a great chance of still having the best hand not to mention ten outs. That means that you have a 20 percent chance of winning and only need 5 to 1 odds to call which you obviously have.

[stupidsucker]

I would like some more input please.

Preflop- Been having trouble with what I thought may be over aggression with JJ. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible at all though. I thought there was support for playing JJ this passive preflop. If I didnt mind being wrong, I wouldnt post hands like this.

Flop- I raised a good amount I thought. My other options were pushing, calling or raising more. Cold calling would have been terrible on the flop. The pot is 60, the bet is 50 (pot 110). Was my raise too small?

The cold call behind from both of them made me think. The turn card is not friendly.

Turn- With an unfriendly card completing a possible flush draw I wanted information. The call from smoke1977 on the flop really worried me. I threw out the min bet to test them both. I wanted to get HU, but if I saw too much action I was gone.

I felt that any bet worth while committed me so pushing was better then betting. Isnt this a situation where I am way ahead or way behind? Do I have enough outs to dry push this?

If I really played this like a complete donk then my poker sense is broken in an abouts this area. I felt uneasy about the play a little, but I ddint think it was bad enough to get this kind of response.

Please help.

[Slim Pickens]

Preflop: I raise here because I know I'm a favorite to flop at least an overpair, but limping and raising are so close in value that limping is also a fine play.

Flop: You're playing it straight up and I think that's the best way to do it at the 11's about 98.5% of the time, including here.

Turn: Was the minbet a misclick? It's not big enough to be a blocker and also not big enough for a value bet. After the raise, I'm not folding with ten clean outs plus the flush redraw, especially at the tens where there's even a chance I'm ahead of top pair and two pair.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I raise here because I know I'm a favorite to flop at least an overpair, but limping and raising are so close in value that limping is also a fine play.

Flop: You're playing it straight up and I think that's the best way to do it at the 11's about 98.5% of the time, including here.

Turn: Was the minbet a misclick? It's not big enough to be a blocker and also not big enough for a value bet. After the raise, I'm not folding with ten clean outs plus the flush redraw, especially at the tens where there's even a chance I'm ahead of top pair and two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds more like the response I anticipated.

I folded to the turn raise.

[applejuicekid]

I must be really tired. I can't imagine ever folding this. I would call expecting to have the best hand. You guys must play poker in an entirely different world if you are even considering a fold.

[Scuba Chuck]

SS, food for thought.

Some basics. I think you're raising JJ here for value. Remember, these knuckleheads are gonna make lots of mistakes. Furthermore, think about how the pot is gonna look after the flop especially if you flop all unders. One, you want to be able to make a bet that will protect your hand, and two, you want to eliminate the blinds from calling without being able to put them on some kind of hand (which of course isn't always possible).

Your flop raise was very good, and their subsequent flush chasing calls are their continued mistakes. But, you can't fold, then you're now making the mistake. You have to call the turn bet with 10:1 pot odds. I know we all like to think we're better than the field, but it's really tough to think you're better than the odds, especially these ones. Call, and make a river decision.

[zambonidrivr]

Only Blue Feet should be allowed to have their name highlighted blue.

NH

[SonnyJay]

Preflop: If there are a number of limpers and raising a reasonable amount would dent your stack you can limp, but you have too much value here to just call. Try to close out some opponents with a raise.

Flop: I Like the flop raise on a board that has this coordination, but I think the raise is too large. Anyone else with me? I think a somewhat smaller raise (ie. to t200 or so) accomplishes the same.

Turn: I really don't see what the minbet is about. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but betting t15 into a t900+ pot isn't going to accomplish anything meaningful. I understand that you suspect that you're behind but between your 10 outs and the distinct possibility that you're still good here you have to call this and make a river decision.

-SonnyJay

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
***** Hand History for Game 2857138496 *****
15/30 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16467417) - Tue Oct 18 20:17:15 EDT 2005
Table Table 35259 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: MIC61892 (895)
Seat 2: walletDump (1235)
Seat 3: P0t_Commit3d (800)
Seat 4: DENTMASTERB (455)
Seat 5: K8394772 (775)
Seat 6: smoke1977 (740)
Seat 7: Bigduck85 (795)
Seat 8: poxyman (705)
Seat 9: lone_dopey (800)
Seat 10: bigj0e03z (800)
Bigduck85 posts small blind (10)
poxyman posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to P0t_Commit3d [ Jd, Jh ]
lone_dopey folds.
bigj0e03z folds.
MIC61892 folds.
walletDump calls (15)
P0t_Commit3d calls (15)
DENTMASTERB folds.
K8394772 folds.
smoke1977 calls (15)
Bigduck85 calls (5)
poxyman checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kh, 9h, Jc ]
Bigduck85 checks.
poxyman bets (50)
walletDump folds.
P0t_Commit3d raises (275) to 275
smoke1977 calls (275)
Bigduck85 folds.
poxyman calls (225)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5h ]
poxyman checks.
P0t_Commit3d bets (15)
smoke1977 raises (125) to 125
poxyman calls (125)

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet the flop since your in Mid-late position, I like the flop raise. You should call the turn b/c you're getting 9:1 from pot and you have a set and Jh incase another heart hits river. You could also improve on river w/ another J or pairing the board, and you could have best hand already w/ the other 2 chasing.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
SS, food for thought.

Some basics. I think you're raising JJ here for value. Remember, these knuckleheads are gonna make lots of mistakes. Furthermore, think about how the pot is gonna look after the flop especially if you flop all unders. One, you want to be able to make a bet that will protect your hand, and two, you want to eliminate the blinds from calling without being able to put them on some kind of hand (which of course isn't always possible).

Your flop raise was very good, and their subsequent flush chasing calls are their continued mistakes. But, you can't fold, then you're now making the mistake. You have to call the turn bet with 10:1 pot odds. I know we all like to think we're better than the field, but it's really tough to think you're better than the odds, especially these ones. Call, and make a river decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't reply any better than this...

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I raise here because I know I'm a favorite to flop at least an overpair, but limping and raising are so close in value that limping is also a fine play.

Flop: You're playing it straight up and I think that's the best way to do it at the 11's about 98.5% of the time, including here.

Turn: Was the minbet a misclick? It's not big enough to be a blocker and also not big enough for a value bet. After the raise, I'm not folding with ten clean outs plus the flush redraw, especially at the tens where there's even a chance I'm ahead of top pair and two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I raise here because I know I'm a favorite to flop at least an overpair, but limping and raising are so close in value that limping is also a fine play.

Flop: You're playing it straight up and I think that's the best way to do it at the 11's about 98.5% of the time, including here.

Turn: Was the minbet a misclick? It's not big enough to be a blocker and also not big enough for a value bet. After the raise, I'm not folding with ten clean outs plus the flush redraw, especially at the tens where there's even a chance I'm ahead of top pair and two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds more like the response I anticipated.

I folded to the turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean the turn raise where you are still ahead half of the time and have great odds to fill up still? that one?

Of course theyll raise their K2 when you rep 77...

Edit: not saying you arent behind here a lot of the time, but his raise was very kind actually.

[stupidsucker]

So to sum this up...

Preflop wasnt bad, but a raise is better.

Flop bet was good.

Turn my min bet was terrible. I think it came because the timer was tickign away and I was torn, so I clicked the min bet to buy me time and get more info. This is just a good example of how running badly and getting on tilt can affect your game just through indecison.

I folded without giving pot odds a thought whatsoever. My only thoughts were... "I think I am beat, and I still have chips to get ITM. I am only a double up behind." Is there ever a time my line of thought is good?

I should have either pushed the turn or check/called.
My other option is bet the turn. If so how much?

Thanks VERY much to the people that are replying.
I may have to dig up lots of my 99-JJ hands and see what everyone thinks. I think I may find a lot of my roi leak is within there.

[john smith]

I like check/calling the turn. If the board doesn't pair on the river and there's heavy action behind you, you can fold and still play with your remaining ~400 chips. Pushing probably wouldn't be too bad either.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded without giving pot odds a thought whatsoever. My only thoughts were... "I think I am beat, and I still have chips to get ITM. I am only a double up behind." Is there ever a time my line of thought is good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone knows the laws of probability apply to poker in general. The biggest difference between the fish and the sharks is that the fish don't believe those laws apply specifically to them. You should never fail to consider pot odds. While there are times pot odds considerations can be trumped by others (implied odds, for example, or $EV vs. cEV), simply understanding and applying pot odds properly makes you better than about 75% of the players at the 11's. Understanding the difference between $EV and cEV gets you up to about 90%. You're worried about the last 10% without assuring you keep the first 90% covered.