That wasn't the guy who was sitting there 5 minutes ago...

[soah]

Party 2/4 6-max NL

Four-handed

UTG limps, fold, fold, I raise to $16 in the BB with 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG calls.

Flop is 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I bet $22, UTG raises to $125.

At this point point I realize this ain't the same straightforward weaktight fishy that has been bleeding chips to me for the past hour in that seat. In fact, I have absolutely no read at all on this guy. (My preflop raise doesn't look so clever anymore, does it?) After the raise he has about $150 left.

[TheWorstPlayer]

ai?

[jkkkk]

I think your way behind or facing a super draw.. fold.

[scdavis0]

A super draw like T9?

[jkkkk]

AT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[scdavis0]

lol ok

All in and it's not close. Your unorthodox raise with 98 out of position means he has no idea how strong your hand here is. And can easily have ANY pair + gutshot hand and assume he's flipping a coin at worst. He can also have 97, 98, any pair + oesd hand, any pair + flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]
Party 2/4 6-max NL

Four-handed

UTG limps, fold, fold, I raise to $16 in the BB with 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG calls.

Flop is 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I bet $22, UTG raises to $125.

At this point point I realize this ain't the same straightforward weaktight fishy that has been bleeding chips to me for the past hour in that seat. In fact, I have absolutely no read at all on this guy. (My preflop raise doesn't look so clever anymore, does it?) After the raise he has about $150 left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Way to go.

[ QUOTE ]
lol ok

All in and it's not close. Your unorthodox raise with 98 out of position means he has no idea how strong your hand here is. And can easily have ANY pair + gutshot hand and assume he's flipping a coin at worst. He can also have 97, 98, any pair + oesd hand, any pair + flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno man, that's pretty aggressive for a hand like J8o or A9o, not to mention limp-calling UTG with it

I think best case scenario your like 60% favourite, Worst case scenario your like 1%-20%, and lots of times it's about a coinflip

Folding doesn't look too bad here...

[Hattifnatt]

You put all your chips in the middle of course.

[scdavis0]

I never included A9 in his hand range.

[ QUOTE ]
I never included A9 in his hand range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then we are in agreement their

But I don't think he would have 1 pair+gutshot

edit: although I forgot the times hero is way ahead against a lower two pair. This looks close to me

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your way behind or facing a super draw.. fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't give a new guy who plays without a full stack and makes this ridiculous raise enough respect to give him this good of a range.

His two mostly likely hands are a marginal made hand like idiot end of straight, or a bluff(either air or semi).

It's still close to a coinflip vs his range, and locking on to this guys tendencies is not going to be hard.

This guy should give you plenty of opportunities to stack him when you have a very good advantage over him, opposed to just a coin flip.

[scdavis0]

Yay.

A classic weak tight "fold even though you have an edge against his hand range" post.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
Yay.

A classic weak tight "fold even though you have an edge against his hand range" post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm anything but weak tight. I'll pass it up when its very close and I know I can get a lock vs the same guy very soon.

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think your way behind or facing a super draw.. fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

His two mostly likely hands are a marginal made hand like idiot end of straight, or a bluff(either air or semi).

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly if you believe this you are pushing, no?

With some more thought, I think it's close enough to where meta-game considerations can tip the balance. Is it good or bad for you to show down your 98s that you raised from the blinds with?

[wdeadwyler]

Why arent you including sets and the nuts in his hand range?

If his hand range is nuts, set, combo draw, chop, and smaller two pair, isnt this an easy fold?

and the guy's sitting there with JTs - flopped nut str8, draw on flush and str8 flush - and you don't believe him.........

[jsnipes28]

What is the one hand that weaktight fish suddenly become super aggro with...AA
He limps UTG, sees a raise from an agressive player, everyone folds, so he just calls. Assumes its a cont bet from an aggro player and makes a huge raise. I don't think weaktight fish even make this kind of a raise with a big made hand. Fish slowplay good hands and push overpairs. I think an overpair has to be strongly considered in his hand range as well.

[soah]

The weaktight fishy cannot hold an overpair after he has left the table.

[starvs]

[ QUOTE ]
The weaktight fishy cannot hold an overpair after he has left the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your first post sort of made it seem as if the weak tight guy had just changed styles, or made a play indicating he may have. Not that there is actually someone new at the table where weak-tighty has previosly been. I re-read it and could see people thinking either one.

For what it's worth I probably push.

[Malachii]

The only hand that you're crushing right now is bottom two pair. Otherwise, you're either a 2-1 favorite, coinflipping, or a very significant underdog... possibly drawing dead. I think this is a fold.

[soah]

Quite a mix of responses. It would have been interesting for all the responses to include which games the poster usually plays in; as this hand really boils down to hand reading against an unknown, and unknowns in different games tend to behave differently.

For the game in question, it has been my observation that big flop raises against the preflop raiser are mainly chip spewing -- people never seem to have a hand when they do this, and they are given no respect. In this particular hand, I was having a hard time putting him on a big hand. His stack is not terribly deep in relation to the pot, and if he had flopped the nuts, he would have no trouble getting his stack in by the turn simply by making a reasonable flop raise. The only reason to make such a large raise would be if he really wanted me to fold, in which case I certainly do not want to fold to him. (You can second-guess this all you'd like, saying if he knows that I think it's a bluff then he might do it with a big hand to fool me... but the reality of the NL400 is that people are NOT thinking that way... and in this particular hand it's unneccessary anyway since if I have a reasonable hand he can expect to double up with other lines as well... it's not like we were 300bb deep.)

Another consideration was that if he is drawing, some of the outs he thinks he has may be dead... for example, 76 or the nut flush draw is in much worse shape against 98 than against KK. And if does have the straight, I at least have a few outs against it.

So in the end I decided I probably had the best hand. Obviously I cannot call there, so I pushed it in, and he folded relatively quickly.

[scdavis0]

Thanks for not putting villain on either JT or A /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

lol..

[FreakDaddy]

4 handed? Am I missing something here? Push. Your hand is well disguised and he probably thinks you missed.