8-16 well played or terrible?

[mike l.]

i have AhTd in the bb live game pretty good. unknown player openraises from cutoff, i call. heads up.

the flop is Kh5s3h. i check-call with a plan of making a move on the turn if i pair up or hit a 3rd heart.

the turn is Jh. i checkraise. he thinks and thinks and calls.

the river is a blank and i check.

comments?

[Ulysses]

I'd usually fold on the flop. But since you made the move and he thought about it forever, fire another barrel. What'd he win with, QQ w/ Qh?

Or, even better, AQ w/ Qh?

[Noo Yawk]

I think you played this well. If he was going to drop it would have been on the turn. You could probably make a case for following through on the river and betting out, but if he called the turn raise, he's probably calling one more bet on the river.

[mike l.]

"If he was going to drop it would have been on the turn. You could probably make a case for following through on the river and betting out, but if he called the turn raise, he's probably calling one more bet on the river."

that's what i figured. he had AQo no heart so i think he was planning to call me all the way down.

[Clarkmeister]

Wow, I can't remember seeing a hand where my personal approach varies so wildly from yours.

Forgetting how you played it, here's how I would typically approach this hand.

Preflop: I'd 3-bet a good 75% of the time. The other 25%, it is with the intention of checkraising most boards.

Flop: Not my favorite with a King out there. But its still disjointed enough that I'm sticking with the checkraise.

Turn: I so rarely semibluff checkraise the turn because it simply doesn't work. It might be the single most overused play in Holdem, and its probabaly not close. In fact, given your action, I would specifically put you on the Ah either with a weak pair or with no pair. Its that common. I've learned to respect the fact that most opponents who keep firing into me on the turn have something fairly reasonable. Besides, the only hand he's folding for a checkraise are ones he would have folded for a simple lead bet. That board is touching all sorts of hands he could have. Given your flop play I'd check-call and maybe even lead, but rarely checkraise.

On the river I think you should bet. I know you are the king of inducing bluffs from queen high, but if your intention was to induce a bluff, why not just check-call him down? Many players will fold something mediocre for that last barrell on the river (though maybe not against you depending on your image that day). Fire away.

[mikelow]

And I would follow up with a river bet. After your lame check on the river, were you planning another checkraise? Otherwise your play doesn't make sense.

[Rick Nebiolo]

mike,

you might want to make a move on the turn if a ten hits too (with a ten bettin out should be considered)

a "thinking a long time" call on the turn usually means your opponent has decided to at least call the turn AND river. good river check.

` rick

[jen]

I'm with Clarkmeister. I'd three-bet pre-flop and lead bet all the way given the way that the board came down. I think the dynamics of the hand would have changed completely with a pre-flop three-bet, and I doubt that Cut-off would have stayed in past the turn with no-pair, no-flush draw given that heat.

As it played out, I think it was a mistake not to follow your bluff through with a bet on the river. I'm sure you only have to have Cut-off fold a small percentage of the time in order for the bet to be correct. I think you have to bet thinking that Cut-off might be holding a heart and staying in for the flush draw.

Check-call pre-flop and check-call flop with a check-raise on the turn does scream semi-bluff. But I wouldn't necessarily think that the average 8-16 limit player would think so. On the turn, it's quite possible that Cut-off was pondering whether A,Q,T were all good outs for him or whether you already had a made flush. I think Cut-off was still trying to improve, not necessarily resolved to call you down. And I'm not convinced that he would have called with A-high had you bet the river.

[Tyler Durden]

I'm not so sure he would have called the river. You showed strength with your turn checkraise. He's probably thinking "i'll fold on the river if i don't improve"

[Ulysses]

Exactly. Especially this part, mike:

On the turn, it's quite possible that Cut-off was pondering whether A,Q,T were all good outs for him or whether you already had a made flush.

[DaBartman]

Your river check was correct. Your opponet made the decision to pay off at the river when he called your raise. You have an ace to showdown. You must call however if he bets the river.

Just read the other posts. I agree with the three-bet pre-flop to take the lead against a possible steal raise, but that wasn't what you did, so I commented on the play as it was.

[bad beetz]

I so rarely semibluff checkraise the turn because it simply doesn't work

Amen.

I wish I could have all the chips back I burned doing this.

[Ulysses]

Your opponet made the decision to pay off at the river when he called your raise.

It's interesting to me that about half the posters here make this assumption.

I wish this were the norm for me, since when I checkraise the turn I usually have a pretty big hand. But oftentimes I'll get called by an opponent who has a few outs to improve. And if he doesn't have at least top pair, he'll often fold to my river bet if he doesn't improve. Like I said, I wish my opponents would call the river every time they call my turn checkraise.

[elysium]

hi mike
ok first ill assume you're on top of your game; your playing fast with odds about 10% of the time, and you are tightening like a knot the other 85% of the time to extract full value from your loose play from LP when you have correct odds.

here your in the lead with AT. and mike i can tell you now, your image is not tight here.

good players know that fast california style play is extremely difficult because the fast action that 10% of the time is addictive. 90% of the california hands should hit the muck without a thought. i'm looking at this post and along with everyone else, we all see it, mike's playing fast 15% to 20%. huge monster increase. you will not win this hand and it has nothing to do with your cards. you have a strong hand here. you played the only way you could here. there's no other way to play it. if there was, we all know you would have played it differently. we see the pre-flop call. why? this guy will call you with his 22 all the way to the river. you need to flop solidly.

if you were 5% tighter, this guy would think you're a rock. you would have 3 bet this thing pre-flop, no problem. you never played this guy before no, that's true. but he looks like 22. and your not folding them.

this thing is over on the turn. you didn't get the fold because your getting called too often, and now, even though you know you're in the lead and this guy doesn't know you, youre afraid of a crummy 22, and you call with AT. that call lost the game here. pre-flop.

that's the worst call ive ever seen.

dynasty folds this guy pre-flop.

you must tighten. you are reduced to check-calling, and hoping. against a SR? with AT?

in first position you call?

you then check-call the flop?

but you played it the only way you could. that extra 5% you're playing that you must stop playing costs you here and there. you cannot out play anyone with the trash that you've been playing. get that idea out of your head. 90% of the fast hands that play well from LP muck on sight. if your coming off a win and need to show action, you have the ability to calculate the odds correctly to make it appear as though you're looser than you are. but when you actually become loose, what's up with that? now when you have the lead, you can't out play. you don't think about getting the folds in the future while you're playing too many of those fast hands. even from LP. you can't do that mike.

i can't believe you didn't 3 bet.

muck the trash youve been playing 90% of the time. stop playing trash. youve got a good hand here but the dang trash in the past drug you down.

[mike l.]

"I'm not convinced that he would have called with A-high had you bet the river."

im not entirely convinced of it either, but i think this may be an up-there/down-here sort of thing. people call down here with very little and they do it all the time.

[DanZ]

Why on earth did yo uplay pre-flop, and since you did, why did you not 3 bet? Not to be rude, but I can't see this line at all.

Dan Z.