cold calling with KQs

[vhuntd]

How's this look? first raiser is pretty agro and can get married to hands that he prolly shouldn't - i.e. calling down with AJ when there's a queen

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

River: (12.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Normally, the only non-pair I would be playing with after it's 3 to me is AKs, and then I would be capping with it. You said raiser-1 was aggro, is he TAGgy or LAGgy? Is raiser 2 aggro? If not, then you should surely fold when he 3-bets.

[Webster]

I would not have colded called unless there were more in the hand. However - once you are in I would have called the reraise praying fora flush now.

THEN
I would have raised on the flop. After that you would be in control.

Isolate him if he has a PFR over 8% or something. Otherwise fold. With that draw heavy board Im raising the flop and taking the lead for the entire hand.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Normally, the only non-pair I would be playing with after it's 3 to me is AKs, and then I would be capping with it. You said raiser-1 was aggro, is he TAGgy or LAGgy? Is raiser 2 aggro? If not, then you should surely fold when he 3-bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
after coldcalling the first raise (which i think was bad), folding to the 3-bet would be really bad.

also to all you guys saying raise the flop - why??

[vhuntd]

but noone is going anywhere with a draw - i can't protect so why don't i just raise the turn for value on a nonscary card?

[Webster]

milesdyson - speaks the truth!

I usually don't raise the turn here. If I am ahead of BB and MP2 I don't want to slow them down. A turn raise will also likely just shut down a hand like AA or AK and you end up doing the betting for them. Finally getting 3 bet really sucks b/c we have enough outs to continue. Am I too weak-tight?

Raise for value before the stupid ace comes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SL__72]

I 3bet that against a LAG preflop.

I think I'm calling both the flop and turn bets.

[milesdyson]

what hand with an ace in it does BB have that is not already crushing us?

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
Normally, the only non-pair I would be playing with after it's 3 to me is AKs, and then I would be capping with it. You said raiser-1 was aggro, is he TAGgy or LAGgy? Is raiser 2 aggro? If not, then you should surely fold when he 3-bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
you surely have some thinking to do about your preflop play. I fold pf against the raise, but wouldn't fold for one more bet unless you offered me 5 BB's to do it.

[SL__72]

AQ hearts or spades, JJ/QQ.

I definately don't like raising the flop vs. his range though.

That's fair, but what's a non-scary card, and how good does it make us feel? A diamond or an Ace is trouble, obviously, but even if a blank comes, are we so certain that we're ahead? I'm not so much worried that someone is going to draw out on me on the Turn, I'm worried that I'm already behind. We've seen a raise and a 3-bet from two aggressive players, but we don't know if they're tight or loose. It's not unreasonable to suspect that at least one of them has AK, AA, KK, or TT. I call the flop and the turn, and possibly raise the river, depending on the action.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Normally, the only non-pair I would be playing with after it's 3 to me is AKs, and then I would be capping with it. You said raiser-1 was aggro, is he TAGgy or LAGgy? Is raiser 2 aggro? If not, then you should surely fold when he 3-bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
after coldcalling the first raise (which i think was bad), folding to the 3-bet would be really bad.

also to all you guys saying raise the flop - why??

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh! I totally missed that he was calling the raise cold, and it was 3-bet behind him. I thought it was 3 to him. Eh, forget my advice...

We have 51% equity vs AQs,AQo,AKs,AK,AA,KK,QQ,JJ. Once an ace fall it drops to around 35%..

[milesdyson]

you're cool losing multiple bets against AA/KK/AK and folding out hands (or giving them a chance to at least) that have, at most, 3 outs against you?

so your equity drops when an ace falls - it still has to fall. if it's going to hurt you, there are only 3 left in the deck to do it.

Hm The ace hand wont fold and people love their pps so I think we are fine. If a non ace falls on the turn we keep firing. I dont think its called losing multiple bets when we are even money atleast. If the other guy is on a flush draw its even. But sure we could play it as WA/WB instead. It doesnt really matter.

[milesdyson]

we are even money against his range (that is if it includes AQ anyway). but we're not even money against what he's going to do with his range. he will 3-bet us when he's ahead and he will call down or fold when he's not. since you said it was 50/50, we are losing more when we're behind than we're winning when we're ahead.

it does matter.

I think it matters a lot. Raising is bad.

[TomBrooks]

PF: Cold call good.

Flop: Call good

Turn: I like call, not raise. Very likely to be behind AK, or maybe AA or KK here.

River: Since prior aggressor checked second King - Bet - ya.

Hm, I would have agreed if we were OOP but now we arent. If a scare card comes we check behind. I am not convinced this is bad.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Hm, I would have agreed if we were OOP but now we arent. If a scare card comes we check behind. I am not convinced this is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
so your assumption is that he always calls the flop raise and checks to us on the turn. needless to say, this is wrong.

when he has AA/KK/AK he is almost always going to 3-bet and lead the turn, and you will be forced to put in multiple bets on the flop with the losing hand, and you'll be unable to take a free turn card.

Yea that was bad thinking, he will probably [censored] up us somewhere. I concede /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
Yea that was bad thinking, he will probably [censored] up us somewhere. I concede /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make sure you understand the reasoning for it, miles layed it out very nicely. Super, super important.

I thought he meant WA/WB, if thats what he meant I agree.

grunch

I hate paying three bets to see this flop, especially with only two other players. The 6% of the time that you hit your second nut club flush you're not getting the payout you need. Being in for two however, I would call the third as well, but play it cautiously as domination is a concern.

Flop...TPGK, backdoor straight draw vs pf raise and reraise...Hmmm? 9J gives you the nut straight, JQ you lose to any ace and JA = probable chop, Q gives others valuable redraws to beat your two pair. I'm not married to this hand at this point. But I'd call one bet.

Turn - At first I didn't like the raise, but the more I looked, the more I like the semi-bluff on the turn. Since the aggro 1st raiser just called, I suspect we have the best hand, but there's still some draws out there.

Flop - play looks good

[lautzutao]

I think you played this perfectly. NH