K10s badly misplayed [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Duffman

10-18-2005, 03:35 PM

Everyone in hand is loose/fishy. Not enough hands for stats. Preflop raiser has been raising alot lately.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

I was thinking about raising instead of calling, but decided K10s is too weak of a hand.

After the PFR I was thinking about 3-betting to bloat the pot. Once again I decided K10s is just too weak.

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Very bad call here. What was I thinking?

River: (11 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Next time I make a call like this, I'm quitting poker.

Final Pot: 15 BB

@bsolute_luck

10-18-2005, 03:42 PM

raise preflop. fold the flop.

peterchi

10-18-2005, 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

I was thinking about raising instead of calling, but decided K10s is too weak of a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I usually would. Your hand likely has greater equity than either of the limpers, and it's nice to have some control over the action.

[ QUOTE ]

After the PFR I was thinking about 3-betting to bloat the pot. Once again I decided K10s is just too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]
hm. I'm not sure what I think about this.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know the pot is pretty big, but... I think I could fold here. I think you need the pot to be even bigger given that the two spades are out there.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (7 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Very bad call here. What was I thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah. river too, but you know it already. I guess you posted this so that the flaming would remind you not to do it again, but I'm not very good at being brutal.

Nick C

10-18-2005, 03:46 PM

Preflop, I think you can raise the first time around, but I don't think the limp is awful or anything. In any event, when it came back to me, I would probably just call, fearing, for instance, that I might be dominated.

The flop call seems fine to me, but I agree with you that you can release on the turn. Your outs just seem too tainted to me here, in this multiway pot.

I also agree with you that the river over-overcall is not good.

brettbrettr

10-18-2005, 03:56 PM

Raise pre-flop.

10-18-2005, 04:16 PM

Someone explain the preflop advice to me. Are we valuing KTs because the limpers are bad players? Against good players and regular bad players, i'd limp with this to coax 5:1 odds aiming for a flush or flush draw. I would have to see consistently poor poker from the limpers to play the KT for paring potential. Am I wrong?

As for the hand, I would call the flop bet getting 12:1, needing about 4 outs which is satisfied by the three useful queens and the BDFD. After the turn I cut out, and if i clicked call by mistake, I'd still fold the river.

silkyslim

10-18-2005, 04:20 PM

raising pf might be really good, depending on the limpers and those left to act. I like the flop peel, you have odds for the gutshot dance and a BDFD. FOld on the turn, 3 flushed broadway cards, one being an ace, your pair of K's bad kicker is looking very crappy, 2 pair puts 4 to a straight, and you will probably split your gutshot.

brettbrettr

10-18-2005, 04:26 PM

A pair of kings wins it fair share of pots.

BigBrother

10-18-2005, 04:49 PM

At this type of table I think it's close between raising and calling pf. You are likely to get cold callers behind so raising is good, but also limping is good since you are more likely to know if you are possibly dominated by a hand would raise after you limp, but will only cold-call your raise.

Once it's been raised, no reraise here because your flush equity is 2nd nuts and your pair equity is dominated.

GSD + BDFD + the likely action behind you = call on the flop.

Fold the turn.

Fold the River.

10-18-2005, 05:21 PM

Do you trust the ten kicker because the limpers are bad, or against good limpers too? I can't like it against average or good players, because either I'm not getting action on my top pair, or paying off a better hand. Wrong?

BigBrother

10-18-2005, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A pair of kings wins it fair share of pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but doubtful it's 20% of raised family fish-fry pots with an Ace, a str8, and 3-flush onboard. And on the Turn you have to commit to 2 bets (minimum) to see this showdown for less than 10BB profit.

Avatar of Wine

10-18-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you trust the ten kicker because the limpers are bad, or against good limpers too? I can't like it against average or good players, because either I'm not getting action on my top pair, or paying off a better hand. Wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you replace "average or good" with "tight (and somewhat passive)" then you have a good chance of being correct - after all, domination is likely if you can place KJ/KQo/JT/AT in the open-limping and overlimping ranges (and eliminate other hands you have dominated, such as Kxs).

Now, if the read is "loose/fishy", we can basically paraphrase Eddy Miller and say, "A pair of Kings is a pretty good hand" - donkeys always draw and all that.

Also consider that if you're better post-flop than the other players, and you know that there are only 2 other Kings left in the deck, you may be able to utilize this advantage to help ameliorate situations like "can I trust my T kicker?"

Yads

10-18-2005, 06:42 PM

Raise PF, I peel on the flop, you're getting 12:1 with 4.5 outs, seems like an easy call although if SB likes to check raise after raising PF, I can let this go.

crazygoose

10-18-2005, 06:55 PM

I always raise this preflop. Not only is the pair of tens or king good more than half the time against 2/4 fish limpers but it gets you a cheap turn and usually a free river card. The hand will still be multiway and you do want to isolate the worse players by raising. This would make the rest of the hand a lot easier to play. I fold flop to stay away from making mistakes later on.

detruncate

10-18-2005, 07:22 PM

I don't think the pf limp is terrible. I prefer a raise if the limpers are loose.

Facing a raise, your chances of domination go way up, and your potential to make a big hand or draw is not sufficient to 3-bet on that basis alone. Just call and see how you like the flop.

I call the flop bet getting 12:1 unless I think the chance of a c/r from the pf aggressor is very high.

I fold the turn. We're likely drawing slim or dead despite pairing.

The river overcall is very bad. SB's flop check usually means he's afraid of the A or has a monster. He seems to love the K or flush card, though, unless he's just worried about the turn checking through -- any way you look at it, he has something he likes. BB has previously chimed in to say that he was at least passibly fond of the flop, and he confirms it when he calls the turn lead. UTG+1 has also called at every opportunity despite the ace and flush on board.

These thing don't add up to a 14:1 chance of being ahead when you overcall. But then you already knew that.