Hand against mike l.

[Justin A]

Good 20/40 game in LA. I raise two limpers with AKo on the button. mike calls in one of the blinds, four ways to the flop.

Flop is J74 two diamonds. I have no diamonds. mike bets, one limper calls, one folds, I raise, mike 3bets, limper folds, I call.

Before we go on, let me just say that my flop raise is awful, and is just spewing here. When mike bets into the field on a flop like this he's 3betting nearly every time. I'd like to move the attention away from this part of the hand.

Turn is an offsuit queen. mike bets and I call.

River is an offsuit king. mike checks and I check behind.

[bicyclekick]

What in the hell justin?

This hand is exactly how a lot of dumb fish play their hands. Put in tons of bets when they have nothing, get there and dont put a bet in.

Not that I think the river check is bad...it just doesn't make sense to call a bet on the turn if you're not even going to bet the river if you improve.

Bad hand sir.

i agree. fold this turn and dont raise the flop. call the flop, fold the turn.

and if you're going to call the turn, bet the river with improvement.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
.it just doesn't make sense to call a bet on the turn if you're not even going to bet the river if you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

im sure he woulda bet/raised if his gutterball came in /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.it just doesn't make sense to call a bet on the turn if you're not even going to bet the river if you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

im sure he woulda bet/raised if his gutterball came in /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!

[DpR]

If the J is the non-diamond, I like a river bet.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]

i agree. fold this turn and dont raise the flop. call the flop, fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting like 8-1 with a gutshot and 2 overs huh?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
If the J is the non-diamond, I like a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack was a diamond, but it shouldn't matter for my river decision.

[DeathDonkey]

Was this when Mike was "acting" like he was on tilt? I don't think the flop is that bad since you can assume he is 3 betting and may narrow the field for you. You might even have the best hand. How do I not remember this hand? Was I walking? I like the river because Mike was screwplaying like a champion all night.

-DeathDonkey

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Was this when Mike was "acting" like he was on tilt? I don't think the flop is that bad since you can assume he is 3 betting and may narrow the field for you. You might even have the best hand. How do I not remember this hand? Was I walking? I like the river because Mike was screwplaying like a champion all night.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a few hours ago. You weren't there.

You do make a good point about the flop raise that I might have the best hand which makes it closer, but I still think it was spewing. I'm also going to have a very hard time getting to showdown against him with just ace high considering the range of hands I've seen him bet 3bet with.

[DeathDonkey]

Diamonds, a gutshot he thinks is a ten outer...but having not seen how the session was going you are in better position to judge than me.

-DeathDonkey

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
it just doesn't make sense to call a bet on the turn if you're not even going to bet the river if you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it does. I think you agree that the river is a check, so are you advising a turn fold? He's getting better than 10:1 with AK on a QJxx board, he's not folding closing the action. Where do you think he should play differently turn/river?

GoT

[DpR]

I dont think he is c/ring you here. I just think there is some chance he will call if he has a J to go with the flush draw.

I assumed you didnt bet because you though you were an underdog if called.

[mikelow]

just chip spewing to me...then a river wimpout.

[ggbman]

I haven't played with Mike, but i would be surprised if he was really checking the river with a better hand, and given his apparent preflop limping standards in good games, i would be inclined to value bet the river.

[Brom]

I think that this is especially a betting situation since the King came off on the river. To me that seems like a way better card than the ace. Mike could easily have had Axs with X paired.

If you're going to call to the river, were you also going to call with AK high unimproved if he fired again?

[Diplomat]

How often do you expect mike to checkraise the river? (hanging curveball)

-Diplomat

[mike l.]

.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
How often do you expect mike to checkraise the river? (hanging curveball)

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

Mikey do likey him the river checkraise. Also, the night before, Justin got to see him whiff on a river checkraise so Mike may try it again suspecting Justin will remember this and doubt that he will try it again.

In other words, it depends what Justin thinks of Mike's recall of Justin's memory in hands where Mike tries to checkraise the river when Justin thinks that Mike thinks that he won't. Got it?

[BoxTree]

On a totally unrelated note...

...why are you guys playing in the same game? Neither one of you are new to the limit, you're not cheating, and you're not playing recreationally.

Or was this the only 20/40 table running? (Or was the only other table really just that terrible?)

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
and you're not playing recreationally.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think we (the 4 you met the other night) pretty much are playing recreationally...at least live. I'm very happy to sacrifice a few bucks an hour in EV for the chance to play with, play against, and talk to other good players about the game.

-DeathDonkey

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
...why are you guys playing in the same game? Neither one of you are new to the limit, you're not cheating, and you're not playing recreationally.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then, why did you stay in the game when you found out that you were sitting with mike and me at the same table?

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...why are you guys playing in the same game? Neither one of you are new to the limit, you're not cheating, and you're not playing recreationally.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then, why did you stay in the game when you found out that you were sitting with mike and me at the same table?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to play with you guys once. (I didn't realize I had played with mike l. before.) If I had planned on playing another 8 hours or so, I would have certainly asked for a table change. But I figured that, with only an hour left in me, I could at least get to know another 2+2er. Don't worry, it won't happen again now that I know who you guys are. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
On a totally unrelated note...

...why are you guys playing in the same game?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to know why they are playing this hand in LA instead of right down the road at Ocean's 11.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
On a totally unrelated note...

...why are you guys playing in the same game? Neither one of you are new to the limit, you're not cheating, and you're not playing recreationally.

Or was this the only 20/40 table running? (Or was the only other table really just that terrible?)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think one good player in a table full of donks is going to make the game bad, then you're not thinking correctly.

mike and I also played 4 handed 15/30 against two props for quite some time.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On a totally unrelated note...

...why are you guys playing in the same game?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to know why they are playing this hand in LA instead of right down the road at Ocean's 11.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the games are sooooo much better. And there's something cool about driving to LA to play poker.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played with Mike, but i would be surprised if he was really checking the river with a better hand, and given his apparent preflop limping standards in good games, i would be inclined to value bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike was the big blind, so his preflop range of hands is huge.

Try to think about what mike thinks I have on the river. What is my possible range? At the same time, given this range of hands, what's mike's best play if he has a flopped set or two pair? What's his best play if he just has a jack?

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
mike and I also played 4 handed 15/30 against two props for quite some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG jealous. Where were you that spread 15/30 and has props?

-DeathDonkey

[mike l.]

because the 20-40 game there is oftentimes crap.

[Smoothcall]

You should have folded on flop being that you didn't and you raise instead. I would call the turn. River i think u should bet. Mike l is probbaly tricky and might be planning on checkraising here but i hate missing bets.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have folded on flop being that you didn't and you raise instead. I would call the turn. River i think u should bet. Mike l is probbaly tricky and might be planning on checkraising here but i hate missing bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

mike is a very good thinking player. This isn't some fish who's gonna just put me on a hand he can beat and check.

[mike l.]

"mike is a very good thinking player."

this is highly debatable,. i was running pretty bad last night, playing overly laggy and paying off too much. i think you get desperation calls here by me too often to not bet the river. and you could easioly fold to a river c/r because your hand would never be good there.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
"mike is a very good thinking player."

this is highly debatable,. i was running pretty bad last night, playing overly laggy and paying off too much. i think you get desperation calls here by me too often to not bet the river. and you could easioly fold to a river c/r because your hand would never be good there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you calling the river with JT?

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
i was running pretty bad last night

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse than improving to the losing hand when the case ace hit on the turn?

Oy, I wanted to cry.

[Smoothcall]

So what happened?

[Ezcheeze]

[ QUOTE ]
it just doesn't make sense to call a bet on the turn if you're not even going to bet the river if you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's just plain wrong.

I'm trying to think about what mike would put him on if he bets the river and if mike thinks clearly for a few seconds hell realize that justin will have J9 or better over 99% of the time on the river. Once in a while i guess justin will have 89 diamonds that he didn't cap the flop with. So I don't see the point in betting the river since there are so few worse hands mike is gonna call with. QT diamonds gets a call maybe, and KT diamonds probably but what else?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it just doesn't make sense to call a bet on the turn if you're not even going to bet the river if you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's just plain wrong.

I'm trying to think about what mike would put him on if he bets the river and if mike thinks clearly for a few seconds hell realize that justin will have J9 or better over 99% of the time on the river. Once in a while i guess justin will have 89 diamonds that he didn't cap the flop with. So I don't see the point in betting the river since there are so few worse hands mike is gonna call with. QT diamonds gets a call maybe, and KT diamonds probably but what else?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thinking exactly. For me to have the best hand, he has to have only one pair. His most likely one pair holding is a pair of jacks. I have a hard time believing he calls the river with jacks.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
So what happened?

[/ QUOTE ]

He had Q8 or Q9 of diamonds and I won.

[mike l.]

Qd9d