TAG EP limper, ATo in LP.

[BigEndian]

I find this to be an interesting situation.

Tight, aggressive table. I should probably be looking for another soon if a soft seat doesn't come along. Raises from EP on this table have been frequently stealing the blinds. But no-one looks like they're taking advantage of that yet.

A player in UTG limps and it's folded to me in MP3 and I have A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

UTG is a solid player and plays well post flop.

What and I doing with my hand pre-flop and why? If I held AJ or AQ how does this change?

- Jim

[droolie]

This is a fold for me against the opponent you're talking about (looser poor players I'll isolate.) Against this guy our implied odds suck as we won't be able to get much money out of the guy and he will punish us when we get frisky with a worse hand. We also might be reraised by a hand that dominates us at this kind of table. Limping sucks too as we are highly likely to see mutliway action and might have to face a raise and reraise.

If you have AJ or AQ you are more likely to want to raise. You are more likely to dominate him and can tolerate calls from the blinds and handle a reraiser better. AJo is 75/25 raise/ fold but AQ is a 100% raise. I don't like limping at tables like this with any offsuit high card holding very often. I want HU or at most 3-way pots with these hands.

[W. Deranged]

Jim,

I'll just ask a couple of other questions which I think are material to the discussion:

1. What are UTG's pfr numbers like? Is he a 6% or a 10%?

This I think makes a huge difference, because if he's on the low side, a bunch of the marginal raising hands he might be limping in with (specifically AJ and AQ) are hands that might have you in bad shape.

2. How does villain play post-flop? Is he particularly aggressive? Does he make moves?

I'm obviously more inclined to come in with a raise if I feel I have a very solid handle on villain post-flop.

3. Are the players behind you particularly on the aggressive side?

You are not getting called behind by worse hands, but if the players behind you are particularly competent and might isolate you with marginal hands (things like 77 or AJo), then raising here becomes much less appealing. So I'd tend to raise less often if the players behind me are particularly good.

My general sentiment is that you are not limping here. Raising is going to be good a bunch of the time, and basically should be done with greater frequency depending on how much control you feel you have over your opposition. It's also important to realize, though, that the UTG villain likely has a strong hand and so you will never have a massive equity edge (maybe some of the time villain has A9s, but this is a small consideration), and so you're never giving up a ton by folding.

[@bsolute_luck]

i know i asked this question in another post of yours: what limit is this game?

the reason i ask is from reading other 5/10 and such posts, people play different than how i do at 1/2. anyway, i fold because typically at the table described, i'm pretty sure the TAG isn't limping with a small pair, so probably AJ+, AA/KK. all other hands at this type of table i would think would raise from this position given that most likely all other hands would obviously not be getting proper odds to limp and has a strong possibility of being isolated against.

[BigEndian]

Sorry about the delay, work got busy.

1. I hate #'s. I think they're a crutch that often keep people from paying attention. This player was a 9% raisor however iirc.

2. I count them as solid which means that they're capable of all that based on what he thinks of me, which I'm not sure of.

3. Yes, but they are also tight. I haven't noticed anyone particularly special however. On the whole, it looks like everyone has been content to wait for good cards along with a good deal of blind stealing.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

I agree, I would fold as well (and did). I would also probably fold AJo and limp AJs. AQ I'm torn about and can agree with arguments from both sides.

Edit: This is a 10/20 game, but I don't think that's very relavent. People complain about being in "rockish" games at all limits.

- Jim

[TheMainEvent]

I'm still thinking fold, but another side of this is that I have noticed a lot of otherwise good TAGs who don't know when to stop limping small pairs on a tight table.

[detruncate]

There can't be many hands he limps with here unless his pf strategy includes some l/rr'ing or he's totally failed to adjust to a too-tight table, no?

I'd expect Villain to raise at least 99+, and often 88 or 77. I'd expect him to raise AQo, and I wouldn't love limping AJo. Maybe he limps ATs. Maybe A9s or worse. But I'd expect him to raise if he's going to play. Surely a solid player has noticed that pots aren't ending up multiway. While perhaps not trying to take advantage of it as such, I'd still expect him to open up a bit unless position 3-bets are a serious danger. I guess he could also be limping PPs.

Dunno. Maybe I'm looking at this incorrectly, but there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between AT and AJ/Q here if the pot is likely to end up HU (again, unless Villain likes to l/rr or limping AJo/AQo/ATs is common -- I'd expect them to be raised almost without exception by an aggressive TAG, though a more passive Villain might well limp any or all of them).

In any case, you're unlikely to take a lot from a worse hand since he is unlikely to spew chips when behind, so I don't think a raise is necessarily the best option. Limping obviously sucks. I'd probably fold, but I'd be a bit surprised if more confident players didn't think about raising at least some of the time.

[shant]

Usually when a 2+2er limps live we wish eachother good luck on flopping a set. I would raise. I think you're head of any suited Ace he is limping, and if the flop comes with overs to his probable pair, it is going to be hard for him to play against you, because I'm sure he has a read that you are solid as well.

I like what was said about not having the implied odds against this player and his limp. Is that really enough to warrant a fold? Isn't this almost like a blind steal situation with 2 big blinds now?

[habsfanca11]

Big, have to disagree - level is particularly relevant. If the higher you go the better the players are (as a general rule) means the game plays differently. I do take your point in that based on the game conditions - what should you do? but the application here I think becomes different based on the level. For instance, same game conditions but at 2/4 I would say tag is limping with a suited Ace less than A,9s or pocket pair less than 7,7. Call me weak-tight and educate me but at 2/4 I'd raise with A,10s and call with A,10o. So, I'd call with your hand and play carefully after the flop - sort of what Shant said (kind of). At your level and game conditions I'm thinking that you're more worried that this looks like the TAG trying a LRR, or trying to get calls for his big hand. Am I way off base here?

[BigEndian]

No, I don't think you're offbase here at all but I disagree with calling.

These are hands I would limp with (but not always) in the villains position:
AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, 77+

In times of lesser discipline:
ATs, KJs, QJs and JTs.

Never 66 and less for the reasons shant describes why he would raise with ATo.

Basically, I would expect a limper up front who wants action and most of the time would be thrilled to be raised. I love putting this play in action with 77-JJ. Especially with TAGs behind me and most pots being contested heads-up and three-way. Even more so if the players behin me don't play well post flop and think aggression=good play.

- Jim

[habsfanca11]

Agreed! So let me rephrase - at 2/4 it's reasonable to put a good postflop playing TAG limping in early, even on a very tight table, on a weak suited ace or small pocket pair in which case I'm Ok playing A,10o carefully. (If anyone wants to school me, please do). In your case at 10/20 the reasonable range of hands you put the TAG on are quite different. In your case a fold makes immense sense as you are likely behind or dominated.