99 facing betting on the flop

[pokernicus]

I have no real reads on Villain/CO. Is a fold reasonable here for me? Or should I be calling this? Also, should I have raised it up immediately on the flop?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero ??

[Shillx]

Just calling the flop is poor since we want the CO to either fold overcards or make a bad call with them. By just calling we give him an opportunity to make a proper call with hands like AK/KQ/AJ/etc. This hand really should not have come to this point, but folding does seem reasonable against most players. You would need some type of LAGgish read here to call since calling now will oftentimes mean calling it to the end since you don't have odds to only play for the 2 outer.

Brad

[hobbsmann]

raise preflop. As played raise the flop the first time around.

I would raise that preflop.

The way you played it I would have raised after UTG made his bet to knock co out. If co 3-bets I'd call and fold UI.

[pokernicus]

Everyone so far recommended raising pre-flop. The game was pretty tight (about 3 people to a flop). In these situations SSHE recommends limping in from EP.

This makes sense to me since middle pairs are much easier to play when you're aiming to spike a set, in which case you want as many people as possible in the pot.

If you think SSHE might be wrong about this, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

I agree, though, that I should have raised it immediately on the flop. Given that I didn't and CO is showing strength with his raise, is a fold when the action gets to me a really bad idea? Otherwise, the hand costs me a lot more since I'm effectively agreeing to stick around until a showdown (as my pocket pair is unlikely to improve).

[bjarne]

Raise preflop. If the game is tight preflop you raise
to isolate UTG. If it succeeds you are in a good spot
with your PP since you have position on UTG.

[POKhER]

what do you do when you raise the flop, get 3bet? Call and fold turn UI?

[bjarne]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you do when you raise the flop, get 3bet? Call and fold turn UI?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is part of the mess we get into since we didn't raise preflop. As it played out, if CO 3bets there will be between
14 and 16 SB in the pot when it comes back to us. We have 2 outs to the set and a weak out to the BD straight which gives us the implied odds to call and see the turn and fold UI.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone so far recommended raising pre-flop. The game was pretty tight (about 3 people to a flop). In these situations SSHE recommends limping in from EP.
...
If you think SSHE might be wrong about this, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind the limp, but I would like to raise to isolate UTG if he's known to be a loose limper. The decision depends on who is in the pot, how well they play, and who is behind you.

The preflop chart is not some gold standard that you must follow. It's there to help you in the early stages of learning the game.

[MrEngenic]

You should raise preflop, everything will play differently. Now that you limp, you should raise the flop. Since you didn't do that either, call the raise and bet the turn, or raise if UTG donks.

[Koss]

The CO worries me. He's facing a donkbet and a call, and then raises. This is almost always a premium pair higher than your nines. I think you have got to fold this turn UI regardless of where the bet comes from. It would suck to give overcards a free look at the river, but I don't think you'll be facing overcards too often in this spot.

[pokernicus]

Thanks for the replies and advice so far! It's much appreciated.

I agree that the SSHE hand chart isn't a gold standard -- after all, poker is situational, and there are rarely universal guidelines that govern how a given hand should be played.

Given that I'm in early position with no real reads on the table and given that the game seems relatively tight, where do you generally draw the (admittedly fuzzy) line between limping in versus raising versus folding when holding a pocket pair? Do I raise w/ 99, but limp with 88? Or 77? etc. I think you have to draw the line somewhere -- personally, I would probably raise with TT in in the same situation.

FYI, in the actual hand, I folded to the flop raise. The villain eventually showed down KK. UTG had A8s. Ironically, the river was a 9, so I would have won the hand had I stuck around. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Of course it's silly to base whether or not I made a correct decision based on the results of a particular hand.

Based on FTP I made a correct decision to fold, but I wasn't sure if the decision was the right one based on the information I had at the time.

My thinking was that the hand was going to cost at least 2.5BB (0.5 to call the raise and the likely turn and river bets) to stick around. Also, I figured that even if I had the best hand right now, I was very susceptible to re-draws as my opponents would likely have at least overcards at this point.

[TomBrooks]

Raise preflop. Hand plays differently then.

Flop, 1st time around as played: Raise. Hand plays differently then.

Flop, coming back to you: I think I'm going to call, but I don't like it much and I think you made your decision more difficult by the way you played it.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone so far recommended raising pre-flop. The game was pretty tight (about 3 people to a flop). In these situations SSHE recommends limping in from EP. This makes sense to me since middle pairs are much easier to play when you're aiming to spike a set, in which case you want as many people as possible in the pot.

If you think SSHE might be wrong about this, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

I agree, though, that I should have raised it immediately on the flop. Given that I didn't and CO is showing strength with his raise, is a fold when the action gets to me a really bad idea? Otherwise, the hand costs me a lot more since I'm effectively agreeing to stick around until a showdown (as my pocket pair is unlikely to improve).

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect situation to raise preflop. 99 is not that strong so fold the table and get it heads up when 99 will be much more likely to win without needing to make a set. That KK would have probably three bet. Then on the flop, bet and if you get raised you can probably fold, although that is a little tough with an overpair. I don't think many will raise that low card rainbow flop with AK.

On the flop if UTG bets and you raise and get three bet, you can fold. As played, if you raise and get three bet you can fold.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
The game was pretty tight

[/ QUOTE ]

This is even more to reason to raise pf. 99 plays very well HU or even 3 handed.

[pokernicus]

From EP where do you think I should draw the line between raising and limping? Is 88 generally strong enough to raise, or am I in limp territory?

In general, what factors should I consider when deciding to limp versus raise a pocket pair in early position? (Advice on middle and late position is also welcome.)

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
From EP where do you think I should draw the line between raising and limping? Is 88 generally strong enough to raise, or am I in limp territory?

[/ QUOTE ]
Usually limp 88 in EP. Open raise 88 from MP on tight tables where you expect to sometimes get the blinds or get it heads up.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
From EP where do you think I should draw the line between raising and limping? Is 88 generally strong enough to raise, or am I in limp territory?



[/ QUOTE ]

I usually draw the line at 77. But it depends on the type of table I am playing. If it is tight I raise 77 or 88, if it is loose and passive I limp 77 or 88.

[ QUOTE ]
In general, what factors should I consider when deciding to limp versus raise a pocket pair in early position? (Advice on middle and late position is also welcome.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said before if the table is very loose/passive feel free to limp more pairs, that goes for ep and mp. In late position I will raise a pp if a lot of people are in to build a big pot for our set. If the table is very tight, I want to raise my pp and get it shorthanded. If you are comfortable playing pp, then I would raise 77+, if not maybe stick to 99+. PP are very profitable when played correctly, and not just playing them fit or fold.

Edit: I will look up a great link for you to read about pp that Entity wrote a while back. Unless anyone has it handy and can post it.