overcards flush draw... turn call ??

[element00]

I'm thinking pot odds say yes? What do you guys think.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($31.50)
Hero ($27.65)
BB ($30.95)
UTG ($20.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $1.9</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $1.75, Button folds.

Flop: ($4.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($20.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Hero calls $10.25.

River: ($30.75) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $30.75

Why not push the turn instead of calling? Or the flop.

But ya, looks like you're getting a razor thin 3:1 here, seems fine if you think overcards are good a decent %.

[element00]

Yeah I mean if I'm going to call an all in on the turn regardless I might as well huh?

Ya, might as well get some folding equity in addition to your pretty big draw. Turns it from a marginal call to a decent +EV move.

[element00]

But the thing is, I probably wouldn't have called the all in, if I didn't pick up the questionable straight outs?

True, I'm just saying once you get to the turn (calling the flop seems just fine, as does pushing all in I'd imagine), if you're planning on calling a bet might as well bet it yourself.

Of course if I'm wrong here I'd love some input.

[creamdog]

I like a push on the flop here, he obviously does not have the nuts because you have the A. So he should be able to fold to that quite easily, even with the K high flush. he may have reraised you with a straight flush draw, or the made flush, in which case the push could make him fold these cards and you wont have to hope to hit. And if they do call, you are still 20-30% to win. Pushing the turn might be a good play too, depending on the villain, if you think he will fold a flush here then it is THE play but if he is going to call you regardless then the check is better, he may check behind and give you a free card. I read the villain to have a made flush so on the turn you have only 7 hearts to hit, the straight and the overs are no good, so you should be getting 6.5 to 1 to call. the immediate odds are only 3 -1 and there are no implied odds because he is all in so you should not call this; unless for some reason, based on previous hands you are relatively certain he doesn't have a flush, because then you have 12 outs and are getting the odds to call because your straight is good and the extra hearts are good now, as well as possible A or K. But I think this was a bad call on the turn.

[element00]

and how do you know he doesn't have a set or two pair? [ QUOTE ]
obviously does not have the nuts because you have the A. So he should be able to fold to that quite easily, even with the K high flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding king high flush are you kidding? hell even folding any made flush at $25's i just don't see it. horrible line of thinking.

[creamdog]

Depending on my read of the player, and what he has seen me do I would easily fold the K high flush there. There is no background info here so I dont know the player. If he is a calling station then you are right, a push is not the play, but if he is a smart player, and knows that there is a fold button, and it is functional, then you can push.

[creamdog]

And he should definately be able to fold something like a 9 high flush.

[Andrew Fletcher]

If you push the flop, I think you have a ton of folding equity. That min raise doesn't mean a flush-- I think there is a decent chance it means a queen. A push says you have the flush and since you've got the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif then you know he doesn't have the nut flush. If you figure your overcards are also possible outs than I think it's a good move.

[Hattifnatt]

A push on the flop definitely not screams flush, more AQ, KK or AK (with one /images/graemlins/heart.gif)

[creamdog]

"and how do you know he doesn't have a set or two pair?"
If he calls here with these hands, unless he for some reason thinks you are flat out bluffing then he should not be playing at this level, he should be playing .05/.10. He is getting 3-1 to 10 outs, 4.5-1, with the set and 4 outs with the 2 pair, 11-1. Neither of these are reasonable calls if he puts you on a flush, which he should be based on your play. So when he calls he is getting -ve EV thinking you have the flush. And you still have 8 good outs against both of those hands to hit the flush and win the hand. and you still have the straight outs.

[creamdog]

[ QUOTE ]
A push on the flop definitely not screams flush, more AQ, KK or AK (with one /images/graemlins/heart.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]
A bet and a reraise on that flop, that screams flush to me, it was an average bet. When he min raises that says 2 pair, set or KK or AA, based on his preflop play, it is not aces or kings it might be bottom set, or more likely, 2 pair, it is also possible he has a low flush. The fact that he min raised shows that he has some respect for your hand and is afraid you have made a better hand, a push can likely push him of of this, he doesn't want to go broke here, he has shown some fear. If he had made it more than 8 I might say he has a good flush and he is not afraid of your hand and then I don't push because he will call. But with the nuts if he raises, how you you not reraise? And with the stacks, making him go all-in is the only meaningful raise, you dont make it 12 to go here that is just dumb, you are playing no limit for a reason.

[sourbeaver]

[ QUOTE ]
So he should be able to fold to that quite easily, even with the K high flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not fold the K high flush in this spot on that flop, ever.

[Hattifnatt]

Ok, then we are of different opinions.

He will NOT fold a 9 high flush to a reraise.

I don't think he will fold any hand better than KQ (or maybe AQ) to a push

[creamdog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So he should be able to fold to that quite easily, even with the K high flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not fold the K high flush in this spot on that flop, ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

EVER?? And you are a retard.
Do you lose a lot of money? One of the big things in poker is knowing how to lay down a hand.
Playing in Halifax Casino in the summer I took a guy's entire stack 2nd hand after the table started because he wouldn't lay down the K high flush, I could have had the Ace high flush, but in actuality, I flopped the straight flush, and played it very aggressively once he gave me a little action, I gave him every opportunity to fold. I was showing my strength.

[Hattifnatt]

creamdog &gt; you are just joking, right? (hope so for your own sake)

[element00]

me too, he thinks the lowest level of party = godly players?

i really hope creamdog is not serious in any of his posts.

[element00]

lol, I would never fold a flopped king high flush, are you [censored] serious man? if the a high beats you that's life definitely not on the $25's all the way up to the $200's probably [censored] it.. I think this guy takes party $25's way too seriously haha.

[nietzreznor]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, I would never fold a flopped king high flush, are you [censored] serious man? if the a high beats you that's life definitely not on the $25's all the way up to the $200's probably [censored] it.. I think this guy takes party $25's way too seriously haha.


[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of this discussion is taking place out of context. Certainly there are spots/opponents where we could fold a K high flush, or even an A high flush if there was a possible straight flush. This is all read dependent, and stack size dependent. If you had stacks of 5000BB, you may want to consider laying down, depending on your opponent.

All of this said, in the actual hand, I think myself or most anyone else lays down a K high flush at any point in that hand just about never.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking pot odds say yes? What do you guys think.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($31.50)
Hero ($27.65)
BB ($30.95)
UTG ($20.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $1.9</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $1.75, Button folds.

Flop: ($4.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>


[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't read the thread yet, but I 3-bet all-in.

[sourbeaver]

[ QUOTE ]

EVER?? And you are a retard.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, are you ? (this is a rhetorical question, btw)

And you shouldn't insult a fellow Quebecer, shame on you.

lol I was thinking the same thing. This is a small stakes hold em game, not high stakes omaha. The odds of a K high flush being beat are horrible. And, for the most part, players simply don't worry about being beat by a higher flush at this level. Absolutely HORRIBLE advice!

I don't think a big raise would necessarily signify that he has a bigger flush &amp; is not afraid of your hand. With a lot of players this raise signifies "I have a good hand &amp; wouldn't mind taking the pot right now with this scary board." In this example he did not make a large raise but I think your thinking of this hand in general is flawed. He will not fold a flush here!

Your posts are better than comedy central! I love it! Please give us more. Folding the K high flush at any level is a mistake here. Over the long run, you would win way more by holding onto a K high flush. It's not a matter of "he could have the nut flush", it's a matter of "how often will I win in this exact situation with this exact play." Your straight flush example is just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. What poker books have you been reading and who has been advising you to make these plays? You might want to take them off your Christmas card list because: 1)not only are they losing you $ by laying down excellent hands but 2) they are making you look like a complete donk on this web site. I think that's all I have to say for now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

exactly. I mean I know ther's such great players at the NL25 tables and they're taken so seriously.

Do you actually think your opponent is going to put you on an ave high flush if you push the flop? You bet the flop, and get raised &amp; you have the nuts. Your opponent likely thinks he has the best hand, so why make him think otherwise. Why take him out of the lead. By pushing with an ace high flush on the flop you only make your opponent re-think his hand strength. If you smooth called the raise w/ the nut flush you would probably get all his chips on the turn. Most players would not push an ace high flush here except for beginners who are so excited they can't contain themselves. If I was Villain and you cam right back over the top of me on the flop I would be thinking one of 3 things:
1)you have AA w/ the A of hearts
2)you have KK w/ the K of hearts
3)you have QQ for a set

Those hand make the most sense given the fact that you re-raised preflop if you were to push the flop. There could be an outside chance that you had AQ with the ace of hearts but most players wouldn't make this play. There's also a chance that your opponent won't even be thinking about what you have. He may be a donk. It is NL25. Granted there are some good players at this level, there are still plenty of donks.

I misread the original post. He did not re-raise preflop. It was a simple raise. My bad. I still wouldn't put my opponent on an ace high flush if he pushed the flop. If I had a K high flush and my opponent pushed the flop, I would put all my chips in with a smile.