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View Full Version : Flopped flush sees nightmare turn card and a donkbet

paperboyNC
10-18-2005, 12:44 AM
MP1 is 27/10/1.8 (VPIP/PFR/AGGR) after 52 hands

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (6.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero ?

So obviously I could have 3bet the flop, but I don't think a set or the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif is folding anyways. I want smaller hearts to call and make a second best hand, so I flat-called.

Now the heart comes and MP1 wakes up. My instinct is to call-down.
Scotch78
10-18-2005, 12:56 AM
You absolutely must raise this flop. Your reasoning might hold if UTG and UTG+2 had called, but as the hand played out this is an auto-raise.

Scott
paperboyNC
10-18-2005, 09:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You absolutely must raise this flop. Your reasoning might hold if UTG and UTG+2 had called, but as the hand played out this is an auto-raise.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Why am I raising this flop? I think I flat call here every time.
dopp16
10-18-2005, 09:14 AM
i think I autoraise here every time for the reason you already said. The Ah or a flopped set is not going to lay it down anyway
paperboyNC
10-18-2005, 09:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i think I autoraise here every time for the reason you already said. The Ah or a flopped set is not going to lay it down anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a raise doesn't get rid of the dead money, it does not increase my pot equity, nor will it get more money in the pot. I would rather wait for the turn and try to trap several players for a double big bet.
brettbrettr
10-18-2005, 10:37 AM
BB if not often leading the turn. That's why you're raising this flop.
bakku
10-18-2005, 11:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So obviously I could have 3bet the flop, but I don't think a set or the A is folding anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is more of a reason to 3-bet than to just call. a heart coming on the turn also kills your action. general rule of thumb is to not slowplay flopped flushes.
ReadyEddie
10-18-2005, 11:07 AM
Whats up with this preflop? marginal at best or am i missing something?

Yeah i agree with raising on the flop.
bakku
10-18-2005, 11:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Whats up with this preflop? marginal at best or am i missing something?

Yeah i agree with raising on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

4 limpers and the button? extremely standard limp
PTjvs
10-18-2005, 11:37 AM
I've never made this limp in my life, and I'm looser than most here.

jvs
MN_Mime
10-18-2005, 11:40 AM
I fail to see how that is pertinent.

Are you suggesting that it's a raise, then?
brettbrettr
10-18-2005, 12:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've never made this limp in my life, and I'm looser than most here.

jvs

[/ QUOTE ]

YOu should start. If you have a suited king, the button and a few loose limpers, limp along. Same goes for the CO too most times.
paperboyNC
10-18-2005, 12:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've never made this limp in my life, and I'm looser than most here.

jvs

[/ QUOTE ] http://keshava.com/pokerhands.jpg
PTjvs
10-18-2005, 12:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how that is pertinent.

Are you suggesting that it's a raise, then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm simply stating that many people fold this, and limping may be standard for you, but it isn't for many.

This hand is simply too hard to play postflop for me to play it profitably; There are zero flops I love other than a flush flop or 22x, flopping K2x can be profitable, but is going to hurt you when you are counterfitted, flopping KKx you aren't getting any action unless you are ahead. I assume you are giving up if the flop is KQ4 &amp; it goes bet/call/call or bet/raise to you?

jvs
PTjvs
10-18-2005, 12:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've never made this limp in my life, and I'm looser than most here.

jvs

[/ QUOTE ] http://keshava.com/pokerhands.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

I play about 8 fewer hands in LP than that chart recommends, mostly junk suited Ks. I don't think I'm alone.
Borodog
10-18-2005, 01:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I play about 8 fewer hands in LP than that chart recommends, mostly junk suited Ks. I don't think I'm alone.

[/ QUOTE ]
10-18-2005, 01:08 PM
I'm supposed to limp 97o in the cutoff? Well, if the chart says it...
Borodog
10-18-2005, 01:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm supposed to limp 97o in the cutoff? Well, if the chart says it...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's Krieger's start chart from More Hold'em Excellence I believe, although it may be from the original. It glosses over a ton of nuance, like 97o. 97o is "playable" from "late" if by "late" you mean "the button" and by "playable" you mean "stealing against two tighty-whities" (in which case it's really any two cards) or "I'm so super-uber-great post-flop that I can limp unsuited gapped middle garbage after 7 limpers."
10-18-2005, 01:30 PM
lol. Yea, that's me, the second one you said.
paperboyNC
10-18-2005, 03:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So obviously I could have 3bet the flop, but I don't think a set or the A is folding anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is more of a reason to 3-bet than to just call. a heart coming on the turn also kills your action. general rule of thumb is to not slowplay flopped flushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flopped flushes are very different when you have 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif than when you have a K/images/graemlins/heart.gif high flush.

You really want someone with a Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif or J:jack: to stay in the hand at he is drawing close to dead.

My plan was to raise the turn if it was anything but a heart.
MN_Mime
10-18-2005, 03:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I assume you are giving up if the flop is KQ4 &amp; it goes bet/call/call or bet/raise to you?

jvs

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends upon the players (number and quality), where the bet is coming from, and whether I caught a BDFD or not. KQ4 gets bet with 2nd pair and BDSD often enough, I can't auto-muck top-pair. KQ is often raised PF and K4 is no more likely than my own K2s, so I'm not certain enough that I'm behind or drawing dead to give up on the hand without more information.

I think your second line is good, but the first is where you might find yourself outplayed if you auto-muck.
10-18-2005, 03:48 PM
&lt;i&gt;
Flopped flushes are very different when you have 3 2 than when you have a K high flush.

You really want someone with a Q or J:jack: to stay in the hand at he is drawing close to dead.

My plan was to raise the turn if it was anything but a heart.
&lt;/i&gt;

If you like your K flush, then why are shutting down to a fourth heart? It shows you realize your vulnerability, hence, you should raise postflop. A Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif and A/images/graemlins/heart.gif may both call, may both fold, but opponents like to play random aces much more than random Qs. By raising, you are much more likely to induce a mistake, pure and simple. If you are right, and you kept a Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif in play, then you certainly are not captializing on it with this play.

Calling down now is okay. I don't like folding unless there is a lot of action, because people will show the craziest flushes sometimes.
10-18-2005, 03:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You really want someone with a Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif or J:jack: to stay in the hand at he is drawing close to dead.


[/ QUOTE ]

My feeling is that these hands are not folding. Even better, MP2 might have flopped a lower flush and you give them a chance to put more bets in drawing dead, while trapping everyone else for more bets.

As played I think calling down is ok, you gain bets from hands drawing dead and lose the least if someone has the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif
10-18-2005, 03:58 PM
Stupid question, but do you repliers who quote someone without adding anything do so as a mistake or to agree or what?
silkyslim
10-18-2005, 04:04 PM
i fold pf, raise the flop, raise the turn.
Borodog
10-18-2005, 05:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[R]epliers who quote someone without adding anything do so . . . to agree . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP
Yads
10-18-2005, 06:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Flopped flushes are very different when you have 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif than when you have a K/images/graemlins/heart.gif high flush.

You really want someone with a Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif or J:jack: to stay in the hand at he is drawing close to dead.

My plan was to raise the turn if it was anything but a heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me, you are much more likely to get action if you fast play the flop, not when you wake up on a blank turn.
MN_Mime
10-19-2005, 02:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
agree

[/ QUOTE ]
MN_Mime
10-19-2005, 02:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
agree

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Personally, I think it's just to pad their post count and because they are too lazy to contribute anything more. Sometimes, a point has been made to death and just weighing in to reinforce the point by consensus is better than more exposition.

^^^ case-in-point