Misplayed, but where?

[Macedon]

I know I misplayed this hand. I have trouble releasing big pairs, and I feel like since I was playing so tight, I gave away my hand with a big raise UTG. But you tell me, where is my biggest error....going all-in when a flush threatened?

The villian in question was a maniac. He was in 50% of the pots and was very aggressive. In short, I didn't think he had the flush but the possibility existed that he was on a draw.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($82.85)
CO ($51.25)
Button ($107.15)
SB ($29.65)
BB ($54.80)
Hero ($48.25)
UTG+1 ($59.35)
MP1 ($35.30)
MP2 ($35.30)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, UTG+1 calls $3, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, SB (poster) calls $2.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($9.50) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9</font>, UTG+1 calls $9, SB folds.

Turn: ($27.50) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero calls $36.25 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $36.25.

River: ($100) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $100

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
UTG+1 has 8h 9h (straight, jack high).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $100. </font>

[element00]

Er, I don't think so?

I think against a maniac, you played okay. I don't know if I'd push the turn, but I see why you did. Normally I would've doubled my flop bet to $18. If he pushes your last $18 you have a tough, but probably correct fold. Against a maniac I couldn't say folding is correct here.

I don't see a reason to only pot the flop and overbet turn, if you want to dedicate yourself to this pot against the maniac( which you should have considering his play) an overbet on flop to like machinehead stated would be better than your line. that way all in on turn is better and his odds on flop are worse. (Even hought they were already pretty horrible as you could have easily had a club)

[Macedon]

But here's the thing, against a maniac, aren't you giving too much away by playing tight, ABC poker. If he puts me on a range of big hands (QQ, KK, or AA), it is unlikely that he will play his hand incorrectly. He can either call a big raise with low pocket pairs hoping to farm out a set OR call with suited connectors and hope to land a draw (which he will chase), because he knows that the implied odds against an tight poker player will be enormous.

That's the beauty of being a maniac, you always get someone (usually a tight player like myself) to call you down when you land your ridiculous, unseen (unimaginable) hand.
[Haven't we all seen this?]

So how do you combat that?

You can double the pot as was suggested, but against an aggressive big-stacked maniac there is no gaurantee this will solve anything. He clearly has no fear about chasing bad pot odds and he knows that he has the psychological advantage even if you do fight back with aggression.

[Macedon]

Case in point, and I wasn't even in this hand...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($92.07)
UTG+1 ($162.81)
UTG+2 ($451.10)
MP1 ($19)
MP2 ($157.10)
MP3 ($86.15)
CO ($112.18)
Hero ($98.85)
SB ($85.80)
BB ($130.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls $3, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $2.

Flop: ($13.50) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $4</font>, BB calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $25</font>, BB calls $21.

Turn: ($67.50) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets $20</font>, BB calls $20.

River: ($107.50) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $30</font>, BB calls $25.

Final Pot: $167.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Ad Ac (one pair, aces).
UTG+2 has 4s 5s (flush, king high).
MP1 has Ah As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins $167.50. </font>

[JustToast]

Let me get this straight.

Against a maniac, the posts so far indicate you should far-overbet pot on the flop to induce a "mistake" in him calling with his draw. If he flopped the flush, would it not be our "mistake" to bet 2x-3x pot?

[Macedon]

Just Toast,

I agree with you. The advice to overbet the pot against a maniac when a flush is threatening seems lame.

Look what happened in the second hand I posted where the UTG+2 raised to $25 with a flush draw. That is what maniacs do. They chase draws and they fire away with chips. How do you respond to that when you have KINGS or ACES (like these two guys were holding)?

[Jocke_F]

if the guy is the kind of player that always bet when checked to, I suggest check-raising pot size, and get the small amount you have left in on any turn. With your flop line I would bet a bit smaller on turn but still enough that he makes a mistake if he calls on a flush draw, if he pushes I call and type nh when he has something like a straight.

[Macedon]

This has to be the single biggest way people lose money on the $50 and $100 tables* and the best advice appears to be bet more on the flop or turn. That just doesn't seem good enough.

*I'm sure we have all seen maniacs take down $300+ pots playing cards like 45s, 89s, against big pocket pairs. These players swoop down into a game, play all crazy, build up their maniac reputation and then absolutely crush the competition with hands that leave you baffled. Other than not getting involved in a pot with players like this (unless you have the nuts), there has got to be a better way of handling a maniac (in these circumstances) than what has been suggested.

[Macedon]

Here's a great link from a player who plays the way I've described:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3652601&amp;page=6&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=2&amp;vc=1

And a post by Soah:
"in limped pots I am much more likely to raise the flop with an obvious draw. If I just call it will be easy to put me on a hand so I get no value when I hit. And in a family pot people will bet their top pair with an 'ok' kicker for protection and see a raise as a big show of strength, and not just a move.

If I've called a preflop raise heads up my opponent is less likely to put me on a draw when I call the flop, so I still have a chance to get paid a bit if I hit. And people who raised preflop will frequently have hands like overpairs that they don't want to fold, and they don't think I will need a big hand to raise them on the flop. So I'm merely putting in additional money as an underdog.

But the main "flaw" with my strategy is that it is tailored to exploit a specific error that many players make -- they play their cards preflop (raising), and they play their cards on the turn (either checking or betting), but on the flop they always bet regardless of their hand strength. A wise man once said that the way to win NL poker is to keep the pot small until you've figured out what everyone has. Since I gain no new information about their hand strength on the flop, I take the action which keeps the pot smallest until I can use the turn action to get a better read on them.

...another part of me just gets pissed off when I raise the flop with nut outs and some clown shoves it all-in with AA and I'm priced out."

So I guess a good counter strategy to these players is to go all-in pre-flop or on the flop OR keep the pot small and call it down. But I still wonder if that is good poker when you have a draw heavy board.
(Yes, I'm trying to answer my own post)

[sourbeaver]

[ QUOTE ]
Other than not getting involved in a pot with players like this (unless you have the nuts), there has got to be a better way of handling a maniac (in these circumstances) than what has been suggested.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there is. A very tight player is a player you do not want to get involved in a pot with unless you have a big hand. To beat a maniac, you only need a decent hand, and let his aggression work against him, in most situations.

[Macedon]

I realize this is a dead thread, but I couldn't help noticing that there is advice out there to play your hand exactly the way my opponent did in the hand I originally posted.

Look at this advice from Bet-The-Pot.com:
"Again, you call a modest raise with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Now, I don’t always call raises with suited connectors, but when I do, I will sometimes check raise with a draw also. If the flop comes 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and you check raise the preflop raiser, you put a lot of pressure on him.

If he missed the flop, he has to fold, even though you missed also. If he calls, you have outs to hit your hand and believe me that the times you do hit your hand, the payoff will be sweet because he’ll never see it coming.

A play like this will also slow down even a big hand. I’ve gotten to showdown a lot of times for free after the flop. The preflop raiser then saw my cards and even though he may have won THIS hand, has to be worried to be in a big hand with me because he doesn’t know what I'll do."

OK, so the guy didn't check-raise me on the flop, but he did do almost exactly what this guy recommends. Now that I think of it, it is a good play and something I would try myself under the right circumstances.

As an antidote to this play, I think a PUSH is a better play for a player to make with KINGS on this flop.

[Sorry if no one else is interested. I am, so I'll keep responding to my own post, if need be.]

I think that your biggest problems in this hand were your position and the flop; not the fact that you were up against a loose aggressive player. If you bet you will likely be called only by a better hand (or, at best, an opponent who has many outs to beat you). If you check you could well be bluffed off of the best hand. It's ugly.

You decided to continue with your kings. That's OK. You picked the right sort of opponent to do this against, someone who is likely to chase without a made flush. BUT it is still risky. Your loose aggressive opponent won't always have the flush when he calls but you can be sure that he will have something if he calls on this board. Maby it will be as little as a pair and no club, maby it will be a made flush. Often you will be a small favorite, sometimes you will be a big dog. The point is that even when continuing after this flop has a positive expectation it will not be a very big one. That is not because of some great play that your opponent can make. It is simply because the situation is bad for you and good for your opponent.