A5s hand from the 6max sweat session

[DMBFan23]

original thread here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3698058&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post3700753)

couple people watched this one and there were some comments, so I figured I'd post it and see what everyone thinks.

assume UTG is your typical 5/10 player, so he is slightly tighter (but still loose) and markedly but not extremely more aggro than the 6max players you would find in 1/2. they are still too skeptical, though, and are also willing to try a bluff when the situation looks good to them.


PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

River: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

[shadow29]

nice hand sir.

everyone else note that we're putting one and only one bets in on the river.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
nice hand sir.

everyone else note that we're putting one and only one bets in on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks, I should post one of the dubious A high calldowns I made, so no one thinks I'm good at this game or anything. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Weatherhead03]

Bet/fold the river the river with 4 to flush I assume.

[DMBFan23]

yeah, bet-fold was my river plan, although I didn't really consider getting checkraised so the 'fold' part would only apply 1 in maybe 50 or 60.

just cause it's technically a Small Stakes hand, feel free to comment y'all...this slightly aggro type of dude could easily be in your 1/2 game.

[gharp]

I'm having a hard time with this one. What's he calling us with on the river? What was he bet/calling on the turn?

I'm just not sure you're going to get called on that river often enough to make betting worth it...

[aces_dad]

I'm wondering the same thing ... OOP I like the river lead / fold to raise but why not take the free showdown as I don't see him paying off a non-flush very often here?

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
nice hand sir.

everyone else note that we're putting one and only one bets in on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm betting, I'm of course folding to a raise. However, I'd be interested in hearing more about how much value you see in this bet. I mean, based on the action, I'd be pretty surprised if he had a diamond (many agg. players would bet 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gifX here), but I'd also be pretty surprised if he called w/ Ax, no trump. I'm not convinced that the small percentage of the time he checked a small diamond is smaller than the time he calls with a hand we beat.

I didnt like the river bet either but he seems to be fairly certain that everybody with a diamond will bet into him and not risk it getting checked through. I on the other hand think hero showed a lot of strenght on the turn, so villain might go for the CR because of that.

[DMBFan23]

some value is lost because I can't beat too many other aces-up hands that he might have, but I might get a call from like A9o/A6o no diamond, or from a hand like 78 or 75. him checking really gives you a free pass to bet because he's screaming at you that he doesn't have a high diamond...and given the action so far, the small ones shouldn't be as big a part of his range except for maybe like Ax4d or Ax6d. so at that point you just need to know that he'll call with a worse two pair or a ace with a good kicker to compensate for the times he DOES show up with 5x6d. You can't be sure, but we don't need to be *sure* - only need to be good just over half the time we're called...it's funny, people usually bet out at these rivers because 'he wouldn't bet on that board if I check' and yet when they check and you do bet worse hands somehow find a way to call.

it's probably thin but with A8 it becomes a little clearer IMO.


if you get checked to on the river, and you're not sure, instead of trying to rationalize whether you're good 55% of the time, ask yourself if you're EVER good...we have plenty of experience checking behind (being too conservative in value betting) so by pushing the envelope (being slightly too aggressive in value betting) we can find where the equilibrium point is. by checking behind, you can SEE his worse hand, but by betting he might call with it, probably won't checkraise you, and you get to find out what's worth a value bet and what isn't. you are only wasting a fraction of a bet, if anything (they really do call with some bad hands...) and the investment is worth it if it helps you lean where the right cutoff point is (for instance, if your third pair value bets are often outkicked, then you might start to consider second pair O.K. kicker a value bet when you didn't before. of course this is board and action dependant, but I hope the point about adjusting the scale makes sense) hell, maybe you'll discover that hands like this aren't.


anyways, he folded the river.

[Koss]

How often do you think he folds a higher 2 pair, or even a set here? Would he check fold those hands facing 4 to a flush?

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
How often do you think he folds a higher 2 pair, or even a set here? Would he check fold those hands facing 4 to a flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably expect a check call from those hands against an unknown, provided they didnt bet the river of course. I think they would have three-bet the turn a large percentage of the time though.

He will never fold a better hand. He will call every single time in my experience.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
assume UTG is your typical 5/10 player, so he is slightly tighter (but still loose) and markedly but not extremely more aggro than the 6max players you would find in 1/2. they are still too skeptical, though, and are also willing to try a bluff when the situation looks good to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against this type of player, I check behind. His turn bet is often a semibluff flush draw. Now that the flush has come in, I think you're trailing far too often for this to be a good value bet. The best situation you can hope for was that he donked with Axo where x isn't a diamond or a better two pair card.