Anyone Push Here - Commerce 10/20

[lapoker17]

New Table. We all just sat down - Lou Diamond is on my right (though that has nothing to do with the hand).

Folded to me in Hijack - I open for $100 w A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Affable, but donkish guy in CO calls - All others go away.

Flop T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet $180

He makes it $480

We both have 2K.

[AZK]

not if you like money. Are you leaving anything out? Like he is going to pay 2k with KTo?

[lapoker17]

Well - That's the thing - It's results oriented post.

I called the $300 more, A non-heart Queen came on the turn, he made a big bet and I folded - He had QT.

But, yeah, I got the feeling he may have called a push.

[riverboatking]

i'd checkraise allin on turn.
all you online players can't fathom playing a huge pot w/just one pair, but in the commerce game this would be a good spot to do it.

although pushing flop isn't bad either.
neither is calling the raise then pushing the turn.
whatever way you think you'll get it all in.

unless of course you recognize your opponent as a regular, if he's one of the hundreds of donks who play that game you should start counting your money.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I just don't understand so maybe you can explain a bit more. Even if he'll raise with any ten or better, our hand does not stack up well.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand so maybe you can explain a bit more. Even if he'll raise with any ten or better, our hand does not stack up well.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can you contradict yourself in such a short sentence?

[greg nice]

what the hell is hijack?

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
what the hell is hijack?

[/ QUOTE ]

One seat from the cutoff. Yes, online it's harder to fathom playing for one pair for a big stack because at about NL400 or more specifically NL600, most (not all) players aren't willing to stick it in with even an overpair. I'm dealing with a bunch of weak-tight nits.

Gosh, it's been oh so long since I've stacked someone with a set against someone else's overpair or TPTK online.

If the Commerce and other live games are so good that TPTK or an overpair is good like this, then maybe I should stop playing online 4-tables and look to playing live more often.

I look forward to returning to LA...

Garland

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, online it's harder to fathom playing for one pair for a big stack because at about NL400 or more specifically NL600, most (not all) players aren't willing to stick it in with even an overpair. I'm dealing with a bunch of weak-tight nits.

If the Commerce and other live games are so good that TPTK or an overpair is good like this, then maybe I should stop playing online 4-tables and look to playing live more often.



[/ QUOTE ]

this would definately be a +EV play for you.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand so maybe you can explain a bit more. Even if he'll raise with any ten or better, our hand does not stack up well.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can you contradict yourself in such a short sentence?

[/ QUOTE ]
PokerStove is my friend. Thank you.

[riverboatking]

what the hell is pokerstove?
if its a poker odds calculator what are you trying to imply?that A10 doesn't match up well vs. "any ten"?

cuz thats one magical odds calculator.

not even to mention the fact that the possible range of hands that could be raising here includes hands much weaker then a ten.

you have to remember that to alot of novice players a preflop raise means AK so there are a lot of hands that will raise here.

i think a big problem a lot of posters here have is not realizing that not everyone out there plays the same way they do.

but in your OP you stated that even if the raiser will raise any ten hero's hand doesn't match up well and thats just ridiculous.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I said 'any ten or better'. And then I PokerStoved it (yes, it's a calculator) and realised that you really have to limit the bad tens he'll play and also allow him to have overpairs and also not allow draws for you to not have good equity here. And then I honestly thanked you.

[riverboatking]

overpairs? are you kidding?

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
overpairs? are you kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, I'm 100% agreeing with you. When I realised that you had to give him way too strong a hand range (e.g. including overpairs) I realised how wrong I had been. That's it.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, I'm 100% agreeing with you. When I realised that you had to give him way too strong a hand range (e.g. including overpairs) I realised how wrong I had been. That's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

its all good. if you haven't played in the commerce games then you probably would have a hard time understanding my incredulation.

[outdrwn]

how can people be shelling out a 20$ big blind without ever picking up a book, studying their play realizing mistakes, and being donk enough to push with a deep stack and TPTK(or Qkicker) ...it doesn't make sense. Kinda sounds like the average 10$ SnG'er on pacific(from which I have far graduated)......... /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[outdrwn]

Did he show QT or is that just your read that you believe must be true(and it may well be, I guarentee your a better player than me)? Just wondering........

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

all you online players can't fathom playing a huge pot w/just one pair, but in the commerce game this would be a good spot to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? We play 20k pots every day w/ one pair, baby!

Seriously, one pair is a lot more of a felt hand online than live.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
how can people be shelling out a 20$ big blind without ever picking up a book, studying their play realizing mistakes, and being donk enough to push with a deep stack and TPTK(or Qkicker) ...it doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Attitudes like this keep people from being able to beat the bigger games.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, online it's harder to fathom playing for one pair for a big stack because at about NL400 or more specifically NL600, most (not all) players aren't willing to stick it in with even an overpair. I'm dealing with a bunch of weak-tight nits.

If the Commerce and other live games are so good that TPTK or an overpair is good like this, then maybe I should stop playing online 4-tables and look to playing live more often.



[/ QUOTE ]

this would definately be a +EV play for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it wouldn't.

[riverboatking]

my apoligies diablo, what i should have said was maybe all you weak tight nits can't fathom playing a big pot w/one pair...

i see way too much "you can't possibly play a big pot w/out the nuts" advice doled out on this fourm which is dominated by the multi-tabling onliners.

no offense intended to all you crazy ass mofo's.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
No, it wouldn't

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're trying to imply that the commerce 10/20NL isn't one of the softest games around then i must take exception.

and i will only recieve satisfaction in the form of a duel to take place on nuetral ground with the weapon of your choosing.

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, it wouldn't

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're trying to imply that the commerce 10/20NL isn't one of the softest games around then i must take exception.

and i will only recieve satisfaction in the form of a duel to take place on nuetral ground with the weapon of your choosing.

[/ QUOTE ]
i think he's just still picking on garland.

[riverboatking]

damn i am so out of the loop.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
my apoligies diablo, what i should have said was maybe all you weak tight nits can't fathom playing a big pot w/one pair...

i see way too much "you can't possibly play a big pot w/out the nuts" advice doled out on this fourm which is dominated by the multi-tabling onliners.


[/ QUOTE ]
tsome of that advice is coming weaktightish players, but most of the time it is good effing advice!
in local 10/25 games, this is an easy push against 95% of the player base.. they will call with a worse T, and possibly w/ an underpair. you certainly want to play for all of it w/ those stack sizes and half of turn cards suck.
in the party 10/20, this is not true whatsoever... they call, you are effed.

[ QUOTE ]
i see way too much "you can't possibly play a big pot w/out the nuts" advice doled out on this fourm which is dominated by the multi-tabling onliners.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's such a huge difference in online and live play
i really hate online /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[arod15]

Diablo, Whats your plan here then?

[Hattifnatt]

muck

[lapoker17]

So OK - This post some larger issues at play, and by leaving them out some of you may have had a hard time figuring out why I might push - I could've included more info.

The first issue is essentially what Jonas was going for - There are just tons of jackasses in these games.

The second is the recent influx of lots of limit players into the 10/20 game at Commerce (and maybe all NL games?).

The thing is, they play NL like they play limit, and this donks raise was just letting me know he had top pair - as he might raise me in a limit game.

It takes a little adjusting, but once you figure out who the limit guys are, you can destroy them.

[bobby rooney]

If he really is donkish then you can either push or just smooth call then lead at the turn. The first play is safer since you are less likely to get outdrawn (or at least you've charged him the max to do it). The second play I like because donks will still chase draws with one card to come, and even better, once they commit a fair amount of chips to something like second pair or top pair weak kicker, they really have trouble getting away. While this could be seen as an argument for allin on the flop, for some reason they are more likely to see the lead the turn play as you trying to take the pot away and will call with some weird stuff.

Both of these plays assume you have about 10K in your pocket for rebuys because you don't want to bust out before you get the donks money. If you are short-rolled, it's a trickier proposition because there may be much higher EV situations in the future which you will miss out on if you don't rebuy (like tournament strategy).