two queens [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

daryn

10-17-2005, 08:19 PM

no reads on villain. what's your plan after he raises flop?

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero caps, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises,

i'll post more of the hand after i get some replies

James282

10-17-2005, 08:21 PM

Call, call, fold.
-James

baronzeus

10-17-2005, 08:21 PM

i call and call the turn, folding the river if he fires a 3rd one.

edit [censored] james beat me to it. but at least im right /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

krishanleong

10-17-2005, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Call, call, fold.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the idea that he won't bet AJ on the river? Or is it the 6 outs that prevents us from folding until the river given the pot size?

Krishan

James282

10-17-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call, call, fold.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the idea that he won't bet AJ on the river? Or is it the 6 outs that prevents us from folding until the river given the pot size?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Both.
-James

tonysoldier

10-17-2005, 08:37 PM

Isn't the unknown villain crazy enough of the time to make calling the river correct? This is something I've been wondering. What % of the time is an unknown in this game someone I shouldn't make standard folds against?

daryn

10-17-2005, 08:46 PM

ok here's more

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero caps, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets

since a few people agreed on that line i figured i'd go right for the river question. seems like people are saying fold yes?

NLSoldier

10-17-2005, 08:47 PM

i like this avatar even better than your last one.

TomBrooks

10-17-2005, 08:50 PM

Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

mc1023

10-17-2005, 08:52 PM

uh any reads?

I would not fold the river against an unknown after paying flop and turn.

daryn

10-17-2005, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

really, you don't think a straight will win this one?

daryn

10-17-2005, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
uh any reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, can you read?

DpR

10-17-2005, 09:02 PM

If you were sweating the villian and on the river he showed you AJ and asked what to do, would you tell him to check?

James282

10-17-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you were sweating the villian and on the river he showed you AJ and asked what to do, would you tell him to check?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have said "dude you played this hand horribly." EDIT: then I would have said check. What is a decent player paying you off with here?
-James

blumpkin22

10-17-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh any reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, can you read?

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

daryn

10-17-2005, 09:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh any reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, can you read?

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[/ QUOTE ]

no, what i had was correct

Entity

10-17-2005, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to be too tremendous of a dick, but you really need to stop posting in mid-high if you're going to continue to post advice this badly.

Rob

DpR

10-17-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were sweating the villian and on the river he showed you AJ and asked what to do, would you tell him to check?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have said "dude you played this hand horribly." EDIT: then I would have said check. What is a decent player paying you off with here?
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that it is clear that hero can only beat and J with exactly QQ (given he never raises). So maybe villian think that hero might fold the only hand that beats him and otherwise he has the best hand.

I am not sure how many times villian is 3 betting AJ preflop and it is likely enough to warrent a call on the river, but I am not convinced he would check that hand there.

mmbt0ne

10-17-2005, 09:46 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to be too tremendous of a dick, but you really need to stop posting in mid-high if you're going to continue to post advice this badly.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

So long as you stay out of the grammar forumly. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

daryn, I've watched some people play plenty of Stars 30/60, and while I think there will be more Js shown down than people are giving credit for, I also think it's a fold.

baronzeus

10-17-2005, 10:20 PM

i think its a fold...i guess he could be betting AQ or TT all the way but i think its AK, 99-AA way too often to make this a call.

Entity

10-17-2005, 10:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So long as you stay out of the grammar forumly.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to be a grammar nit, at least you could do it properly.

Surprise surprise, I agree with James' line here, unless you really have reason to suspect villain may be getting out of line.

rob

TomBrooks

10-18-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]
really, you don't think a straight will win this one?

[/ QUOTE ]
Opps. Make that six outs. Call, call, fold. Calling the river probably wouldn't be terrible, but I don't think you'd win often enough against the average unknown player (no reads) to make it +EV.

TomBrooks

10-18-2005, 01:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I going to say I don't want to be too tremendous of a dick, but then I'm going to be one anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

DcifrThs

10-18-2005, 01:04 AM

pretty straightforward no?

you must call the flop.

when you check turn and he bets you shoudl call again.

and if he bets and you dont improve on the river then you fold.

Barron

Entity

10-18-2005, 01:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I going to say I don't want to be too tremendous of a dick, but then I'm going to be one anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Whatever. You've made a few horrible posts in midhigh and I didn't know if you were just [censored] around or trying to be serious, but the advice was bad enough that I thought it'd be worth mentioning, even if I was being a dick (which I can fully acknowledge). No offense meant, but I had read some of your posts recently complaining about an inability to beat 1/2 6m, and thought that maybe you were trying to 'bite off more than you can chew,' so to speak.

Rob

Paluka

10-18-2005, 01:16 AM

I don't usually fold river here.

daryn

10-18-2005, 01:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't usually fold river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you put opponent on?

TomBrooks

10-18-2005, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say I don't want to be too tremendous of a dick, but then I'm going to be one anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Whatever. You've made a few horrible posts in midhigh bad enough that I thought it'd be worth mentioning

[/ QUOTE ]
My advice in this thread was bad because I didn't read the hand fully and thus correctly. dayrn picked up on that, and kindly and cleverly pointed it out.

FYI, most of the reason I post anything on 2+2 is to get practice away from the table, and if I make an error, to have it corrected here and learn from it.

Maybe you thought I was a paid consultant hired to dispense expert advice here. I could then understand why you would suggest I should resign and stop posting.

durrrr

10-18-2005, 01:44 AM

disclaimer: i suck @ limit;

I don't fold this river- don't you think villain could play AQ/TT/AJ like this on the flop/turn (w/ AJ,then TT, then AQ being most likely). I feel like villain bets the river with these hands too often for you to fold here. Please explain where my logic is flawed.

Entity

10-18-2005, 01:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the Flop. Your playing to two outs 78.6% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say I don't want to be too tremendous of a dick, but then I'm going to be one anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Whatever. You've made a few horrible posts in midhigh bad enough that I thought it'd be worth mentioning

[/ QUOTE ]
My advice in this thread was bad because I didn't read the hand fully and thus correctly. dayrn picked up on that, and kindly and cleverly pointed it out.

FYI, most of the reason I post anything on 2+2 is to get practice away from the table, and if I make an error, to have it corrected here and learn from it.

Maybe you thought I was a paid consultant hired to dispense expert advice here. I could then understand why you would suggest I should resign and stop posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being a jackass. For that, I apologize.

I was also trying to point out that you're prone to making very simple errors in situations that you shouldn't be. That often (but not always) means you should be thinking before you post, which can often be a problem at the tables too. Maybe it isn't. Maybe you were tired, or were having a Newcastle and just didn't care, or whatever. I dunno. I certainly came off like a dick and I don't expect you to understand, given my tone, that I was trying to be helpful.

My whole goal with posting here is to try to help. I can see, re-reading my post that I came off like a sanctimonious jackass. No more of that. Starting afresh. Moving on.

But in all fairness, when you're posting to these hands, I hope you do look at the board and the reads before posting your comments. You'll certainly learn a ton more by reading more than simply writing.

Rob

TomBrooks

10-18-2005, 02:04 AM

OK. Thanks.

James282

10-18-2005, 02:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't usually fold river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people that advocate folding don't, either, from my experience playing mid and high limit hold 'em.
-James

baronzeus

10-18-2005, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't usually fold river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people that advocate folding don't, either, from my experience playing mid and high limit hold 'em.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess i should elaborate. when i am playing well (aka not now) I am folding this. when i am breakeven for like 20K hands, i like to extend my breakeven streak by calling rivers like this.

10-18-2005, 03:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't usually fold river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people that advocate folding don't, either, from my experience playing mid and high limit hold 'em.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha Ha that is so true. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Against an unknown or TAG I'm definitely folding this river, but against a semi-LAG or LAG I'd be very tempted to call and probably would a good deal of the time.
The bottom line is I think it's very rare that a reasonable opponent will raise you with a worse hand on that flop after you've capped it PF.

mc1023

10-18-2005, 03:30 AM

10:1 on the river against an unknown with one overcard..

i dont like folding.

um no reads and no stats, I can assume one out of ten times this guy is a donk and could be on a big range of hands.

Nightwish

10-18-2005, 03:31 AM

I'm not folding against a complete unknown.

EDIT: How do I get my name in a putrid green color or some such thing?

Nightwish

10-18-2005, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown or TAG I'm definitely folding this river, but against a semi-LAG or LAG I'd be very tempted to call and probably would a good deal of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
So the default assumption for an unknown on Pokerstars is that he's a TAG? /images/graemlins/confused.gif Good thing I don't play there.

daryn

10-18-2005, 05:28 AM

results

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero caps, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets,

i called and CO showed J/images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

still wondering if it was correct or not. by the way after this hand, the villain quickly demonstrated his fishiness in several other hands, and if i had that kind of information i would have just called down after the flop raise no doubt

TomBrooks

10-18-2005, 06:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i called and CO showed J/images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, you don't find many guys three betting J4s. I happened to have a LAG whacko on apparent tilt at a low stake 6max table I was just playing. He three bet Q4o from the SB to my Button raise after 3 limpers. Even though he was on my immediate left, I managed to get 10BB off him alone in an hour. I made a mistake on my first confrontation with him or I would have gotten a few more.

Did you manage to take this guy to the cleaners? You've got to love a guy like that on a 30/60 table.

Almtom

10-18-2005, 06:29 AM

This is so intressting DN wrote an article about exactly this situation QQ on K high flopp villan beeing aggresive. His concusion was either you raise turn or fold. Reason is that he will not 3 bet you with a K because he is afraid of AA or set.
The few times you make your hand on river you will make 1 extra bet if you raise turn, incase you have him beat (AJ) you make him pay for drawing out on you.

baronzeus

10-18-2005, 06:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
results

i called and CO showed J/images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

oh..when i said fold earlier... i meant call. oops.

ggbman

10-18-2005, 09:08 AM

Its like to chime in, i jusy want to say against unknowns, i think this is generally close enough that it doesn't materr.

ALL1N

10-18-2005, 09:12 AM

That is terrible advice. You will get 3-bet on this turn a lot.

Paluka

10-18-2005, 10:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't usually fold river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you put opponent on?

[/ QUOTE ]

A pair which is very often lower than my queens.

arod15

10-18-2005, 10:31 AM

fold....

veganmav

10-18-2005, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
results

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero caps, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets,

i called and CO showed J/images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

still wondering if it was correct or not. by the way after this hand, the villain quickly demonstrated his fishiness in several other hands, and if i had that kind of information i would have just called down after the flop raise no doubt

[/ QUOTE ]

With the call on the river maybe being +EV, and probably at worst somewhere around even EV, I think when you add in the fact that we are playing against an unkown.

By making this borderline call on the river, we get

A: Useful information on the opponent
B: If it was an overplayed AJ we get the pot
C: If our opponent turns out to be a maniac playing some garbage like say J4s we get the pot.

Combining these, I like the river call.

btw daryn I like your old avatar better /images/graemlins/frown.gif

daryn

10-18-2005, 06:37 PM

super-cool black name bump

Alex/Mugaaz

10-18-2005, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't usually fold river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you put opponent on?

[/ QUOTE ]

A pair which is very often lower than my queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

How straightforward does the opponent have to be for you fold the river?

DcifrThs

10-18-2005, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
super-cool black name bump

[/ QUOTE ]

super cool copy cat /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

let the record show i was the first black colored name poster.

Barron

Lmn55d

10-18-2005, 06:49 PM

once you go black, you never go back

daryn

10-18-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
super-cool black name bump

[/ QUOTE ]

super cool copy cat /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

let the record show i was the first black colored name poster.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

it was a surprise to me, but i dig it

TimM

10-18-2005, 06:56 PM

[censored] (or non-conformist, not sure which name he was using at the time) had black for a little while a few months ago.

James282

10-18-2005, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its like to chime in, i jusy want to say against unknowns, i think this is generally close enough that it doesn't materr.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be right, but I have to think that you are ahead about 1/20 times here. Most opponents in 30 60 are not super donktastic idiots. I don't know what the point of this hand was, as this "unknown" represents less than 1 percent of the 30 60 population - maybe the point was to show that people sometimes play this way? Anyways, against a donk it's an obvious call, but I stand by the fact that the results in this particular hand are not representative of the range of hands you'll usually see here when a three-bettor raises on a rainbow board.
-James

ggbman

10-18-2005, 07:08 PM

How do you get your name to be colored?

TimM

10-18-2005, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How do you get your name to be colored?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any of the dozens of moderators can do it.

elindauer

10-18-2005, 09:26 PM

This looks pretty simple. You have too much hand to fold with outs to a straight and a set, not to mention the times you are ahead of, say, TT, and this flop is all over the hand range of your opponent, so you can't raise. So call planning to check and call the rest of the way.

good luck.
eric

sthief09

10-18-2005, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
super-cool black name bump

[/ QUOTE ]

hard to argue with what the james said

daryn

10-18-2005, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what the point of this hand was, as this "unknown" represents less than 1 percent of the 30 60 population - maybe the point was to show that people sometimes play this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the point of the hand is crystal clear. i just wanted to see what everyone thinks the best line to take here is. the results are meaningless, but people would no doubt ask for them, so there they are.