Poker's Popularity

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

I decided to put this here even though it could go on several of our forums. But an interesting, and in my opinion, a very important event occurred this week. There was an explosion in book sales.

Two things happened. First, unknown to us, the World Poker Tour on their show did approximately a two minute segment on poker books. To be honest, I wasn't compketely thrilled with all the praise for Doyle Brunson's Super/System. While I agree that this was a great book when released, it is badly out of date today. But what the segment did do was make many people who were watching the show aware that there were good books on poker available.

The second thing that happened was that our company, Two Plus Two Publishing LLC in conjunction with Gambler's General Store here in Las Vegas ran an ad for four of our poker books. They were Hold 'em Poker, Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players, The Theory of Poker, and Tournament Poker for Advanced Players. The results were just phenomenal.

First, Gambler's General Store had so many orders that their web site and phone system broke down. Second, the orders spilled over to virtually everywhere else.

The best example of this was on Amazon.com. Now for those of you who don't know, Amazon is a huge bookseller worldwide. They also produce a sales rank on every book they carry and rank over 2 million books. But even more important is their top 100 sellers on their main page which are updated every hour. Now it's my understanding that there are over 30,000 publishers out there that produce books, so you can see how difficult it is to get any book in this top 100. Well, the ad ran Wednesday night, and for almost all of Thursday, we had three books in their top 100 at the same time. The Theory of Poker peaked at 28, Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players peaked at 35, and Hold 'em Poker peaked at 81. (Tournament Poker for Advanced Players peaked at just over 200.)

But that wasn't all. At this same time, there were six books on poker in the Amazon.com top 100. In the world of book publishing, this is simply amazing.

Yes our ad helped, but the interest and demand for poker is there like it has never been before. I believe this also means that our poker rooms, whether on the Internet or at a B&M will be packed, and the games will be very good for a long time as more and more new players come into poker.

By the way, I'm hopeful that we'll be able to run our ad again and perhaps repeat the ride we had this past week.

Best wishes, and thanks to everyone for all the support.

Mason

[BruceZ]

That's great Mason. Congratulations. It pays to advertise as they say. There have been WSOP shows on TV before. With so many people gambling, you could probably advertise on sports shows or many kinds of shows and get a big response. People make a lot of money off of infomercials since the same ones play over and over. Don't you wish you had done this sooner?

[Billy LTL]

Heartfelt congratulations Mason. You deserve it.

Though personally I hope new enthusiasts to our game all veer towards Phil Helmuth's new, uh, book on poker and stay away from the 2+2 lineup for now. Just joking. (Not really).

To add an "explosion" story of my own I've been doing much of my playing online recently. The games have been extraordinarily good for a couple of weeks, even at the higher limits, even at 4:00 am your time. Lots of tables full of beginners around the clock.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Congratuluations, Mason. I am delighted for both personal and selfish reasons. Poker's exploding popularity is good for everyone who plays seriously, and it especially good for writers.
Regards,
Al

[Warren Whitmore]

You guys deseve to be at the top, congradulations. I own all of the two plus two books and have studied them all with the exception of "poker farce and poker truth" which I only rate as margional.

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif mason..nice post and congrats...advertising and tv help, but also, getting on the internet and giving sincere, accurate, well-thought-out analysis of poker situations...and immediate feedback on questions concerning quality of binders and points in your books also is invaluable.

in other words, you have earned an excellent reputation...i hope you at least consider that this is the real heart and soul of every gr8 organization...gl /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

[Al Mirpuri]

One year Coca-Cola had a turnover of $15,000,000,000.

That year, Coca-Cola spent $1,000,000,000 on advertising.

Advertising pays.

[Mike Gallo]

Mason,

Great job !!

Hopefully we will get an influx of new players.

Keep up the outstanding work /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Michael

[bernie]

"I wasn't compketely thrilled with all the praise for Doyle Brunson's Super/System."

i kind of laughed when i saw the praise for this book. as you say, great book, but a little dated.

BUT, id much rather have new players study that book than a 2 + 2 book. hahaha no offense, but i think you know what i mean. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

id rather them buy Phil's book.

call me selfish /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

but congrats on your boom in sales. it must be a fantastic feeling to get the windfall.

btw...ive also noticed some of the old fish in my pond are a little more educated. though many new players have/will make up for those lost to newfound knowledge.

have a good one! oops, you already are!!!

cya

b

[Lee Jones]

Hi Mason -
We'd chatted briefly (on Books/Software I think) about this. To what degree do you think Positively Fifth Street, the World Poker Tour itself, and the Lucky TV show have contributed to the explosion?

I agree that we're likely to see better poker games all over for awhile, and I, too, hope that we'll get to repeat last week's wild ride sometime. Whatever caused it.

Regards, Lee

[andyfox]

Congratulations on the phenomenal books sales. HEFAP turned me from a losing Hold'em player into a winning player. Sales will spike when poker gets hot, as it is right now, with the WPT and the success of Positively Fifth Street (I also note Amarillo Slim's book prominently featured in Barnes and Noble and Borders bookstores), but the book has legs, I think, because it has also helped a lot of others.

I assume many more people are playing on the internet than in B&M games. Anyone have any idea how many people actually play on the internet?

[Easy E]

about the money you're going to make, Mason?

/forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Easy E]

when legislatures will get off of their "internet gambling is bad" high horse and legalize poker, so we can try "safer" games located here?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bruce:

No. I don't believe that doing this type of advertising sooner would have had any effect. The time was just not right.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Scalf:

people don't realize it but David and I (and Ray to a lessor degree) have been at this since the mid 1980s. Our policy has to always produced top quality material and not to hold anything back. Over time it gradually paid off.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Lee:

Positively Fifth Street: 20 percent
WPT (including the gambler's General Store/Two Plus Two Ad: 50 percent
Lucky: 0 percent
Additional Two Plus Two Advertising in the trade: 15 percent
Other factors: 15 percent

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Billy:

I actually think that books like Hellmuth's damage things. Because it has a large publisher and big campaign behind it, a lot of copies will quickly get sold in a short period of time. but when people try to play, they will quickly lose their money and we won't see them again, and some of these people would have been long term good for poker if only they had started with a different source.

Best wishes,
mason

[Dentist]

I'm excited about new players coming in as well, but I fear they'll be far more educated than I want them to be.
At my B&M, all but the lowest limit games (3-6) are practically unbeatable because the average player is pretty good.

I think this poker explosion will favor only a few people:
1) Book Publishers (yea for 2+2!!! - you guys deserve it)
2) Casinos (and they really don't need the help)

I could be very wrong here, certainly a new player that's read a book is still new and inexperienced, but I'm just worried about losing my edge....which is slim already.

Also, I'm not digging the increased weekend waiting times for a seat.

On a positive note - maybe another casino in town will realize the potential value in creating a cardroom and do so - that would be the best value this explosion could create.

[Dentist]

Also, how would i find out how many copies have been sold of WLLH, HPFAP, TOP, etc.

I'm curious just how many people have purchased these books out of the millions of people that play casino poker (is there a true estimate on this?)

I would say the majority of people I associate with have no concept of poker outside 5 card draw and maybe some lame penny poker game from college or something.

I agree WPT is enhancing the country's perception of casino poker though...

[Ulysses]

I'm excited about new players coming in as well, but I fear they'll be far more educated than I want them to be.

I think you're giving people way too much credit. I'm all for having tons of new players who all read the 2+2 books. How many people can really understand and utilize that information, applied correctly to the type of game and opponents they are facing?

Look at the posts on 2+2. See how the games play at 3-6 vs. 20-40. See how the games play in SoCal vs. Vegas. See how the games play B&M vs. online. How many players can take that into account and adjust correctly?

Look around these forum, home to an incredible concentration of thinking poker players. There aren't that many players here who are consistently beating the games and moving up. Sure, we have some experts like our hosts, snakehead, andyfox, Tommy, etc. But very few here are at that level. I'm not worried about a bunch more guys like that popping up just 'cause 2+2 sold a few more books.

Congrats to Mason, David, & crew. I think you guys are doing (and have done) a ton for the game and this success is well-deserved.

Now, if those players all start finding this forum and participating, then we might have something to worry about.... /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[Lee Jones]

This is a difficult question. I am told that during the height of the "21 card counting book" explosion (80's and early 90's), casino 21 profits went up every time such a book was published. Which made sense - it's a very different thing to know how to count cards than it is to put that into practice in a casino, follow the strategy, stay within Kelly, avoid detection, etc.

Is poker much different? I'm inclined to think that perhaps 10% of the people who read a good poker book will be able to translate that into winning play. Even if the book is on the money.

If I'm right, then more poker readers should translate into more games that are not particular tougher in general.

The counter-argument is that games have gotten tougher over the past 20-30 years, and this can be directly traced to the publication of good books (and software such as TTH). Chris Ferguson says that IRC poker was his training ground for the WSOP.

It may be that there's an instantaneous increase in the number and quality of the games. But the survivors, like the big trout in the creek, will be the tougher members of the species, and ten years from now, we'll regret (from a winning player viewpoint) the increase in book readership.

Regards, Lee

[Zeno]

"Our policy [is] to always produced top quality material and not to hold anything back. Over time it gradually paid off."

Mason,

I think your statement says it all very well. And puts the phrase "long term" in a proper perspective for all poker players to ponder over. Congratulations on your success with publishing. And thanks to everyone at 2+2 for making top notch books available to all.

Regards,

-Zeno

[andyfox]

I think the games get tougher over the years with or without the books. A certain percentage of players become better players just by the experience of playing, or by talking to other players. A certain percentage drop out or drop down because they lose, lose, lose. I remember playing draw 25 years ago and the games (in Gardena) were great. Gradually they became less so; the players simply became more sophisticated. And I don't think very many of them read too much, since there wasn't much of any quality available at that time.

The percentage of studious players will always be low, I think, so the percentage who makedly improve from reading will also be low. Your figure of 10% seems about right.

[BruceZ]

Maybe that show "Lucky" has something to do with it. You could advertise during that show too.

[whiskeytown]

yer not kidding about the popularity boom.

I'm noticed Pokerstars tournaments are now almost always breaking 200 players and the $200 one on Sun. had 458 players...(first prize $25000...yikes)

part of that may be an influx of internet players due to Chris Moneymaker's satellite/WSOP win that originated there...but I think part of it is just watching people play on the WPO tour...have people at other internet sites noticed a substantial increase in the # of players in their tournaments/live games?

good...very happy to see us start getting some fresh blood again. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

rb

[mewhoelse]

I was wondering if you have observed similar patterns in sales after Rounders came out. Granted, the movie was a bit of a flop, but was there a spike in book sales and if yes for how long?

Thx

[Toro]

Last week I responded to a post that I thought the WPT was good for poker. The poster thought that the announcers left a lot to be desired. This may be but this telecast since it is on every week in the same time slot has garnered a lot of interest. Friends of friends who know I play poker have asked to borrow my poker books because they want to learn and this was after watching the WPT.

[Vehn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
At my B&amp;M, all but the lowest limit games (3-6) are practically unbeatable because the average player is pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh I highly doubt that.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Look around these forum, home to an incredible concentration of thinking poker players. There aren't that many players here who are consistently beating the games and moving up.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's plenty of people who have visibly (forum-ly) moved up significantly in the past year or so, myself included. Hell, look at who was posting in mid stakes last year at this time and who is now. While I agree that there's not a lot of posters in small stakes who make their way to the mid stakes forum, I think its mostly because the better small stakes posters don't have the desire to play mid limits full time for the most part - its requires too much of a bankroll, they're uncomfortable with the stakes for whatever reason, who knows.

Hmm I forgot what point I was trying to make here.

[Easy E]

that mid-limit players are so scatterbrained that we fishies can swim right on up without difficulty?

Or have I just incurred the Wrath of Paranoia? Maybe we'll see his? Moving Up Manifesto soon...

[Vehn]

Not this again.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Dentist:

I'll go ahead and answer one of these questions. 65,000 copies of HPFAP have been sold. However, at current pace, we expect to see approximately 30,000 copies of it sold this year. I can't answer accurately on the other books because I'm either not the publisher or have only been the publisher for part of the time that the book has been in existance.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mew...:

Yes, but it was much smaller than this. Part of the reason was that it began from a much smaller base. Also, we believe the main reason for the Rounders spike was a 30 minute informercial about the movie that featured David Sklansky for about half the time and which was shown twice on ESPN (before the movie came out). I actually doubt if Rounders itself helped any at all, but we did see our sales go up the month before the movie came out.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bull:

I agree that the announcers leave a lot to be desired if you are a knowledgeable poker player. But if you're not a knowledgeable poker player, and my guess is that close to 99 percent of their audience fits here, they're probably doing a very good job. Also, that's the people they're probably aiming their comments at.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Easy E]

[Vehn]

[zooey]

Take 1000 people who buy a poker book.

A fraction x read it, digest it, and progress to the point where they are not contributing, even if they aren't beating the rake.

A fraction y use it for bookshelf decoration.

And most importantly, a fraction z kind of read it, decide they know what they're doing and proceed to use humans' astonishing ability at self delusion to slowly lose orders of magnitudes more than if they would never have bought books in the first place.

I got into gambling via Blackjack in 97. (picked up poker in '99 after getting barred at my local casino) In the two plus years I played, I put in over 2500 hours at various casinos. There are many good books on card counting, and it's MUCH easier to learn than poker. I did fine on a very simple system from Kenny Uston's book, and never bothered with anythng more complicated preferring to focus on finding good cuts and not making mistakes.

I saw hundreds of players who considered themselves to be counting cards, and I would say only 10% were competant to the break even point, let alone profitable. Casinos made more off the books than any of the authors or publishers did in their dreams.

Books are good for the game, without a doubt.

Best,

zooey

[rkiray]

Great glad to hear you are doing so well. It must be good for all of us, but especially you guys. I figured I should post a good note to you. In the past I've only replied to your posts when I thought you made a big error. I must admit that this is because your reputation intimidated me. This is silly on my part because you are almost always so polite to most posters (and the ones you arn't deserve it). Anyway I figured I owed you a nice note.

[mikelow]

Poker is booming. Here's my take.

The run-down Horseshoe get 839 entrants for the 10,000 buyin no limit event. The winner is someone who won a $40 buyin satellite online. So anyone can win, or so is the impression.

There are so many places to play online now. So it's easy to sit down and play. And with the WPT on the Travel Channel, ESPN coverage of the finals of major events, Rounders ,
and books like Positively Fifth Street , no wonder the game is taking off.

Another contributing factor is the Binion murder case, which brought even more attention to the World Series.

[J.R.]

At 2:30 AM Eastern Time, there are over 2300 real money tournament and ring game players at PartyPoker, 950 of the same at ParadisePoker, 1040 at Pokerstars, 370 at UltimateBet, 330 at Pokerroom, and more at other rooms as well. And yes, it is after midnight here in the Rocky Mountains and well past good night time for the working masses on the east coast.

[Rick Nebiolo]

J.R.,

IMO those numbers for online are suprisingly LOW and I expect them to increase tremendously in the near future because of the WPT and recent best sellers such as Positively Fifth Street. But most of the growth online will be in the lower limits where people have a reasonable comfort level and online can offer a low rake (for example, it isn't easy for a B&amp;M to profitably spread no limit with 25 and 50 cent blinds).

And primarily becasue of lack of market pressure, B&amp;M card clubs will continue to underperform.

~ Rick

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Hell, some of the announcers on big-time sports leave alot to be desired. John Madden and Joe Morgan, fo example, are total morons as color commentators. That doesn't hurt baseball or football.

[Timer]

This "explosion" in book sales proves the adage: "The money to be made in gambling is on the inside."

I've seen no rise in the number of tables in the medium to higher limits at the Commerce Club. In fact, business has dropped off somewhat. Any infusion in poker will be in the unbeatable smaller limits or perhaps online.

It's good to see someone is making a profit from the residual effects of the WPT, because it certainly isn't any of the poker players.

Books on the subject only make the games tougher and give entry level players a big heads up that was not available 30 years ago.

Of course I have to give credit to those with the insight to write the books, because now they can sit back and not have to grind it out on a daily basis fighting the omnipresent rake.

The house will be very pleased if they are able to spread more smaller limit games as well. They don't give out the same comps and rake the games more liberally. Yes, someone will surely profit.

It's too bad we all can't share in "Poker's great fortune."

[Rick Nebiolo]

Timer,

See my post elsewhere in this thread. B&amp;M underperforms and many in management don't even realize it and that it could be fixed.

Regards,

Rick

[J.R.]

Maybe you have some high expectations or weren't around for the drought that ensued after Paypal and most credit cards were made unavailable for funding accounts, but for a Monday night well past peak hours, these numbers are pretty good. And no doubt they will get better, but I think you fail to realize just how much growth has occurred in the past 2 months, although you are right to note that this recent growth has been in low limit games and will likely continue.

[Rick Nebiolo]

J.R.,

No doubt the credit card/Pay Pal problems have hurt the growth of online poker. When I say the numbers are low I'm looking at it compared to the potential market in a world where there are perhaps millions of potential customers. I realize there has been a tremendous recent surge which I expect to continue.

Now that some other sites (besides Paradise) are achieving critical mass, we will get to a point where true competition exists between sites. This will be a boon for players.

Note that this competitive condition doesn't exist in the B&amp;M world. Poker is either restricted (e.g. Los Angeles where you and I can't get a permit to open a club) or it is a small part of a very competitive gambling business (e.g., Las Vegas).

Many B&amp;M owners and managers fear online poker. I think online will ultimately help B&amp;M by exposing poker to many who will thirst to have a live experience. But B&amp;M will have to do more things right and keep rakes reasonable (especially in regards to taking high rakes from small pots).

Regards,

Rick

[microlimitaddict]

congrats to 2+2...although i do feel a bit ripped off since i had just bought TOP at a bookstore for the retail price. oh well....still worth the money.

one wonders how much more traffic party-poker has received from their ads on WPT.