Is this just me being foolish?

[slavic]

Tight game with two losing players at the table. They weren't bad they just played to many hands and it was costing them. Paradise 1/2 yea I know but trust me the game was tight, then this hand shows up. 27% on the flop only 3 pots larger than 5 BB.

I'm UTG A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I raise, folds to MP1 who calls, to the CO(Tight as a Rock) who calls, Button calls (he was in a race to give the most money away), And the BB comes along for the ride (he couldn't stand not keeping up with the button).

Flop: 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

All check

Turn: 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Check to the CO who bets, Button and BB fold, I call, MP calls

River: 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

CO Bets, I call, MP folds.

[slavic]

First as a tight player, what is he going to call two cold with? Suited face cards, or strong aces. I can rule out AK because he would reraised the PF to kill off the blinds, there isn't enough money in the pot to semi bluff a flush draw. AA through JJ would be reraised on the flop. So he has AQ, AJ, TT?(very likely not, and I'm not sure he'd play JJ) All the small pair hands on the board don't call two bets. So I chop or win.

Turns out he had A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif for second best hand.

Was I giving too much thought to this play?

[JTG51]

Turns out he had A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif for second best hand.

I guess he's not so tight afterall, huh?

[slavic]

I don't know AJo was about as loose as I saw him, everything else was mid to high pair, AK, AQ. No draws. Heck with that board and nobody showing interest why not assume a strong ace is the best hand, or maybe he was on a pure bluff?

If the bluff comes from the button or the blind I think it's an easy muck for me.

[Bob T.]

No, this feels like a good spot to call down with an unimproved ace. I wish that I was calling the button down, instead of the tight guy.

Even though you have 4 opponents in on this hand, this is the type of flop that might have missed everyone, I would think about betting the flop here.

[Homer]

Even though you have 4 opponents in on this hand, this is the type of flop that might have missed everyone, I would think about betting the flop here.

Bob, how about checking the flop with the intention of raising an auto-bet by the loose button? I feel that if you just bet you'll have Ax calling (with an overcard and a gutshot to a wheel) and probably any two big cards as well (depending on the tightness of the game). By checkraising you might be able to get it heads-up with the button.

I'd be tempted to try this again on the turn, but would probably bet out at this point in an attempt to take it down.

-- Homer

[Homer]

Flop - I would check with the intention of raising an auto-bet from the loose playing button. You most likely have the best hand at this point, but I don't think you should bet because you will be called by Ax and any two big cards, most likely.

Turn - Whoops, the flop was checked through. I guarantee you have the best hand now. I would bet out, but I could understand if you checked again with the intention of raising an LP bet (not many low-limit players can resist checking a hand through twice from LP). After CO bets and button and BB fold I think you should check-raise. Get MP's 6-outer out of there (e.g. - KJ, KT, JT, etc..) and hope that CO folds immediately to your raise. If he does not then check the river and hope to induce a bluff. Even if he calls your turn checkraise I have no doubt your hand is best (since he checked it through on the flop he didn't coldcall preflop with a middle pocket pair), but he won't call another bet on the river with his worse overcards. So, I think you should check to induce a bluff. I won't be at all surprised if others disagree.

River - Okay, you just called the turn bet. I think this could make your decision on the river a little more difficult since MP is still in there. But luckily a blank came (8), so you have an easy call of CO's bet, even with MP yet to act behind you.

-- Homer

[JTG51]

Heck with that board and nobody showing interest why not assume a strong ace is the best hand, or maybe he was on a pure bluff?

I meant his preflop call with AJo after an UTG raise was loose, not his post flop play.

[SoBeDude]

Turn - Whoops, the flop was checked through. I guarantee you have the best hand now.

Why do you feel this? I'd say with 4 opponents, its far more likely someone caught a card they wouldn't bet. people don't always come out betting with third pair ya know.

-Scott

[Homer]

Why do you feel this?

Cutoff/MP1 - The CO is a somewhat tight player. His coldcall preflop means that he has big cards or a middle pocket pair. When the flop comes low and he doesn't bet when checked to, I am nearly certain that he doesn't have a middle pocket pair (which would be an overpair to the board with this flop). That leaves overcards, which are likely worse than AQ. I will concede that there is some chance that Hero is tied against CO or possibly behind to AK if CO is super-tight. Most likely, though, Hero is ahead of this player.

I think the same argument holds true for MP1 even if his play is slightly on the loose side.

Button - The button is said as being in a race to give the most money away. Perhaps this means that he is loose and passive, but in my mind it means that he is loose and loves to bet. If he caught any piece of this flop he would have bet when checked to. The only way he wouldn't bet is if he had A3/36/55/44/22. So it is possible that button is ahead, but again, it is not likely.

Big Blind - Since the BB had to pay only one bet to see the flop, he could have a wide variety of hands. He could have easily checked the flop with a small pair, or even a monster, hoping to checkraise the preflop raisor (Hero). If he had a hand, though, you would expect him to come out firing on the turn, since the flop was checked around. The problem is, he checked again. Now if he is a savvy player, maybe he knows that most preflop raisors cannot resist checking after having been checked to on two consecutive streets. But most .5/1 players are not this savvy. I'd expect BB to bet any 5, 4, 3, 2, or flush draw on the turn. Since he checked again, my guess is that he has absolutely nothing.

I'd say with 4 opponents, its far more likely someone caught a card they wouldn't bet.

Just because there are four opponents, the flop is likely to have hit one of them? Why is that? I don't think a flop like this is likely to have hit players who called two bets cold preflop (MP1, CO and button). It could have hit BB but he checked on both the flop and turn so it is likely that he has nadda.

People don't always come out betting with third pair ya know.

I agree. But again, why would you put anyone in this hand on third pair? Just because of the sheer number of opponents?

Question for you - How would you have played this hand?

-- Homer

[SoBeDude]

Question for you - How would you have played this hand?

Probably wrong! (hence my questioning) I'd bet the flop better than 50% of the time here. I probably have the best two overcards and a gutshot. My problem is how to continue to play the turn once yet another blank falls (probably bet this board).

I guess I just see so many people playing odd cards. Any Two flush cards, especially if they are one or two gappers for example could easily catch a small piece of the flop.

And it is an awfully lousy looking board. Its very true that most decent players are going to not be holding cards in that flop, unless they had a small pair, possibly played out of position (davidross and rigoletto style).

Now if they hit a set, they could check it though, hoping to encourage, say, an ace-high in early to bet, get callers trapped for a raise on the turn. Does that sound unreasonable?

And the Button, race to give away the most money smacks of calling station to me, not aggressive bet-with-any-piece-of-the-flop.

BB could easily have any two suited cards. even odd ones like K2s, or Q4s. Would he bet that even on the turn (if no flush draw)? doubt it. But it still beats Ace high.

-Scott

[slavic]

When the turn card dropped Hero thought either the BB caught a monster, or nobody has anything. I was half way shocked to see the BB fold because a raise likely wins him the pot.

With the BB and Button folding to the late better, I had little fear of the board hitting anyone who was left, a check raise probably makes sense to kick out an overcard draw, but would a flush draw lay it down?